McDonalds robbery Sugar Land texas

[MA-Caver]

I'm not talking as an employee......i'm talking as an armed customer who always brings his gun to McDonald's.

And you won't last long enough to grab a hostage.....you might get a shot off, but I doubt it......i'm going to be done firing in less than 2 seconds.

In real gunfights you don't shoot one guy, wait 20 seconds, and then shoot the other one....REALLY, you don't.......the REAL reaction if you don't hit one of the other bad guys is that they'll run like hell......that's what similar incidents show us......if they don't get dropped, they RUN!

Sarge, I was trying to help you out by giving you a tactical layout of the typical restaurant beyond where most customers are not allowed and where the robbers would more than likely be and what their cover/concealment would be like.

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://criminalsforguncontrol.com/

I'd like to add that I respect all the opinions given so far, and understand that even those I disagree are well thought out positions......what I take exception to mostly is the idea that acting in the face of an armed threat is somehow 'more dangerous' or 'endangering everyone else' more than inaction.........and NO EVIDENCE has shown that to be the case......in fact, to the contrary, action of SOME sort, running, shooting, physically resisting, has been shown to be more effective that passive cooperation in many circumstances.

In short, my decision is built around the idea that i'd rather trust my own skill than trust the good will of armed sociopaths not to WANT to hurt me if they decide to.......the first is a plan of action, even if it doesn't succeed.........the second his putting my faith in individuals who have PROVEN you shouldn't have any faith in them but to be sociopathic killers!

I agree which is where I started in this thread. The What If's are just that. What If. Each one has its own validity and would depend upon the billion upon billions of input that could change the situation.

 

[Deaf Smith]

So the Manager can be a master sharpshooter and STILL cannot have a weapon on him or anywhere on the property. So that concept is well and beyond moot.

Not all managers 'obey' rules a company gives to them. After all, they are the managers. Sure they will get fired, read the papers and you will see now and then a Domino's driver gets fired for defending himself with a gun (it's happened here a few times in Texas.) But the drivers decided their life was worth more than 'rules'.

You'd better be DAMN good at shooting and that your weapon is strong enough to go through at least 3 layers of stainless steel..

Yep, and there are DAMN good shots other there, I can say for a fact. Again, that's why I posted this in a martial arts forum and not a dear abby one. And the steel thing. Why that works both ways. It can be your cover to.

Here are seveal where the store owners or customers did shoot it out.

Store Robbery Leads To Shoot-Out
http://www.wbaltv.com/news/5846283/detail.html?rss=bal&psp=news

Pawn Shop Owner Opens Fire On 3 Armed Robbers
http://www.click2houston.com/news/8628368/detail.html?rss=hou&psp=news

Gunfire exchanged during wine and spirits
http://www.truveo.com/Gunfire-exchanged-during-wine-and-spirits-store/id/3845140738

CONVENIENCE STORE SHOOTOUT: Manager kills suspect
Customers call man hero in robbery scare
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2007/Jan-06-Sat-2007/news/11822416.html

County Attorney: Shop Owner Fired In Self-Defense
No Charges To Be Filed Against Man Who Shot 3 People Tuesday
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28698231/

Armed robbery goes awry
Convenience store owner pulls weapon on gunman
http://www.theitem.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090117/ITNEWS01/701179966

Clerk shoots would-be robber in Halifax County
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=9666561&nav=s6ak

Robbery suspect shot, killed in East Atlanta
Potential victim ‘got the jump on him,’ fires 5 or 6 times
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...ta_shooting.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

And with Google I can get lots lots more of these. I mean I can rain this things down on this thread. There at lots of them. More than most people think! Note that these happend recently!!!

Now... MA-Caver, find me a bunch were it went bad and innocents killed.

Deaf

 

[MA-Caver]

Not all managers 'obey' rules a company gives to them. After all, they are the managers. Sure they will get fired, read the papers and you will see now and then a Domino's driver gets fired for defending himself with a gun (it's happened here a few times in Texas.) But the drivers decided their life was worth more than 'rules'.

Well, I guess they, and you, can afford to lose their jobs and ruin careers for doing the right thing. Some folks probably can't. Also as you well know there are a number of anti-gun folks (not like us :wink2: ) out there. The ones that I worked for certainly were.

Now... MA-Caver, find me a bunch were it went bad and innocents killed.
Deaf

I will not, despite that it probably has happened and I'm guessing a few of the LEO's here would probably attest to.
There's a bunch of "what-if's" with each of them offering over at least a million different variations, and it can go on and on and still end up being moot because nothing will ever evolve in real life as it will here.

I was never against the idea of taking on armed assailants, only the rash judgment of doing so arbitrarily . Seems that there are some who are a shoot first and hypothesize later and I guess that's alright for them. Me, having been shot at, been in gunfights and having my life threatened with firearms (even loaded ones) I'm still of mind to assess the situation as best as possible according to my own experiences and judgment. Hell, I can't carry a gun because of some stupid **** I did when I was younger but I won't hesitate to use one should it arise that I have one for some reason or another and my life and others were threatened. And yes, it will be me who will have to face the repercussions of taking another life... should that ever happen.

 

[sgtmac_46]

sgtmac_46 wrote;


If that works for you and that is what you have been taught I cannot tell you that you are wrong or what you have been taught is unhealthy. For the sake of conversation and admitting that I do not know you and am not talking about you personally I continue this conversation.

For myself what I believe and what I have experienced says otherwise. By only visualizing the positive you already limit yourself to some lessons that can be learned while training, forcing yourself to possibly having to learn them during and after TSHF moments. I can freely admit that I am human. I can freely admit that I have failed in the past and will fail in the future. Admitting this gives me strength and is not a weakness to be feared. Freezing is an action, neither negative nor positive. It depends entirely on the situation. Fear and terror so absolute so overwhelming can freeze a person so that they cannot even take a breath let alone respond to the situation. The fear of injury or of failure can cause freezing and delayed responses. This fear can cause one to over react or to freeze and do nothing, it is a fine line between the two. Learning how to deal with fear can give a person the chance to combat these natural responses. Visualization is one way of learning how to cope with the fear and to keep the fear from making your decisions for you. Learning to recognize that fear building before it gets control is a very good skill to have and one way to get good at that recognition is to practice feeling the fear and then overcoming it thru visualization. Another way is training with honest stress inoculations. I am not saying to dwell on the negative but I am saying to taste them. Feel it happening and then be able to counter them. To deny that the fear is possible denies a chance to learn to overcome it. Being able to visualize negative outcomes helps to reinforce the traits or actions needed for positive outcomes. While visualizing the negative being able to change the action into a positive allows one to do the same in real life. Seeing the boots being put to you, feeling the pain, seeing your family before your eyes then seeing yourself overcoming and surviving can be powerful in my experience. It helps to keep the shock of it happening to you causing a brain loop in the observation orientation actions of the OODA loop. How many witnesses and victims have said “I could not believe it was happening” Get over it, it is happening now deal with it. Prior visualizing helps in my opinion.

Some wear their courage like armor. A shield that has no doubt no cracks no chink no dent no rust. To me this armor is brittle and can be prone to shatter. It is shiny sparkly and new and never tested. This is one reason many may brace their armor and its invincibility with alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, narcotics, false and loud bravado, or other forms of self medication. Fear of letting down their buddies, fear of being found wanting or less in the eyes of their comrades has lead many to glory and the fulfillment of their duty but then lead them to tragedy of self destruction and suicides later as they could not live up to the standard in their own minds. It is better to face danger and fulfill ones duty in spite of the fear rather than because of the fear in my opinion. Learning to recognize it and to overcome it rather than the denying of it or ignoring the possibility of it or rationalizing and making excuses and justifications for it seems healthier long term. Denying, ignoring, rationalization, justifying, making other excuse limits the ability to learn and almost guarantees physically repeating the action at a later time not to mention the countless guilty replays many play over and over in their minds. There is a difference between surviving and thriving.

Regards
Brian King

For the record I believe that in almost all situations action any action usually gets better results than inaction. The action does not have to be large and heroic. It can be as little as sitting in an uncomfortable position so that inertia is more easily overcome when the time to move comes. It can be the active locating of exits, fire alarms, and electrical panels, light switches etc. It can be estimating the number of steps to get to an exit. Actively listening for and gathering useful intelligence for later use. It can be the gathering/making an improvised weapon for use when the fighting time comes. It can be the filling of your hand and others hands with cold steel and gathering allies for the fight.

Why don't you ask professional athletes and combat soldiers if visualizing failure is a POSITIVE or a NEGATIVE! I think the consensus will be on my side of the aisle.

The 'If/Then' thinking you describe is not the same as the negative outcome self-talk you were referring to earlier.......I do wish everyone would get this 'Heroic BS' out of their mind......there's nothing heroic about shooting another man in the head......I'd do it out of fear.

"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death." -Myamoto Musashi

What that means, literally, is that the overwhelming fear of death in the moment of truth is more likely to bring it about than resolute acceptance and effective action......fear to the point of inaction actually creates that which you fear.

"Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him." -Bruce Lee

There's that concept that thinking of losing can actually bring it about.....the 'No Mind' that is referred to is quieting the inner voice and allowing the action to occur independent of thought.


Want to test that out? Shoot a basket off the cuff without thinking about it.....then, shoot one for $100.00 bet.......think about the basket for a while, dwell on it, visualize missing it repeatedly......and see how you do.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sarge, I was trying to help you out by giving you a tactical layout of the typical restaurant beyond where most customers are not allowed and where the robbers would more than likely be and what their cover/concealment would be like.

I saw where the robbers were on the video......your help is irrelevant as they will be standing where they are standing when the shooting starts, and unless they can teleport to cover, why would I start shooting unless they were all in advantageous positions?

Choose your killing ground and the moment to attack.....THAT is how you gain an advantage.

And there is a momentary advantage gained by the first shots fired......human brains do not instantaneously adjust and respond to a changed situation.......action is faster than reaction. All human beings go through a process of decision making and action.

A good description of that process is Boyd's Cycle, or the OODA loop........Observation, Orientation, Decision and Action.

First the bad guy has to observe that the situation has changed.....THEN he has to orient himself to the new situation.....THEN he has to decide what course of action to take......THEN he has to actually ACT!

Once he hear's the first shots, the first suspect is already struck several times.....the other two are still in the observing stage, trying to actually see what is going on........they'll start by looking around and trying to fix on where the shooting is coming from, if it was from each other, from someone else......by then the second robber is being engaged.

As the third was only armed with a club, a bat.....he has a more difficult time counter-attacking......so even if he DOES begin acting, it'll take time......time he doesn't have.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I will not, despite that it probably has happened and I'm guessing a few of the LEO's here would probably attest to.
There's a bunch of "what-if's" with each of them offering over at least a million different variations, and it can go on and on and still end up being moot because nothing will ever evolve in real life as it will here.

I was never against the idea of taking on armed assailants, only the rash judgment of doing so arbitrarily . Seems that there are some who are a shoot first and hypothesize later and I guess that's alright for them. Me, having been shot at, been in gunfights and having my life threatened with firearms (even loaded ones) I'm still of mind to assess the situation as best as possible according to my own experiences and judgment. Hell, I can't carry a gun because of some stupid **** I did when I was younger but I won't hesitate to use one should it arise that I have one for some reason or another and my life and others were threatened. And yes, it will be me who will have to face the repercussions of taking another life... should that ever happen.

I can attest to the fact that the situation you describe where a 'hero' (there's that pejorative again) gets folks shot happens a LOT.....ON TELEVISION!

In the really real world it happens FAR LESS than robbers decide to start shooting cooperative victims.....and far MORE often when armed victims respond, it's the ROBBERS who die!



By the way.....being in the middle of a robbery is not the time to start 'Hypothesizing'.......whatever you decide to do, you had better start figuring it out now.......as when the robbery happens it'll be reactive time, meaning whatever you've committed to is probably what you'll do, circumstances provided of course.

 

[Archangel M]

I must agree w/Sgtmac on the visualization. You train to adapt to a situation...dealing with wounds, one hand shooting/reloading etc. But you never train yourself or your subordinates to fail.

That used to be an "old school" trainig method, the student could never win, the teacher would "kill" everybody and the lesson was "see you do that and you get killed". Modern methods have the student "win" as long as they do as they were taught. And if they dont they may get "shot", but you train them to fight on until they win.

 

[Brian King]

Sgtmac_46 wrote

“Why don't you ask professional athletes and combat soldiers if visualizing failure is a POSITIVE or a NEGATIVE! I think the consensus will be on my side of the aisle”

We will have to agree to disagree for now sir. I will go by my experiences and my many conversations and training experiences with soldiers from many different armies and professional athletes from various disciplines (American and foreign) I try to keep an open mind and one thing I do is to test those things I take as gospel and those things that others take as gospel and repeatedly come back and test the results. I have been doing this for years. It helps keep things fresh and to test what others take as gospel but never take the time to test or explore as well as test my truths and see if they still hold water. I am sure that you will agree that training methods change as theories come and go both for those that chase the gold ring of athletics and for those that face combative conditions. For instance there are some that think firearms training means standing at the range punching holes in paper and others that are rediscovering instinctive/point shooting and still others that are adding movement to the skills. We can take for gospel what today’s ‘experts’ are teaching or we can take for gospel what the ‘experts’ of yesterday were teaching or we can learn from both and then go do the work and see what works for us, and then be willing to test that result over and over.

Yawn, not sure what that has to do with the topic of thread so sorry for the drift. It is late and has been a long weekend.

"I'd do it out of fear"

Good luck to you sir and here is hoping that we never have to face the situation from fear or otherwise. For me I try to never make decisions or to act out of fear and do all I can to prevent doing so. My faith demands it. I do what is necessary because it is necessary, hopefully no more and no less.

Archangel M wrote;

“I must agree w/Sgtmac on the visualization. You train to adapt to a situation”

I wonder if we so not agree more than disagree. I wonder how you train to adapt to a situation if you can never see yourself ‘losing’. Why train shooting with both hands if you only visualize you’re making the basket and winning the hundred bucks? If you only visualize shooting like the cowboys in the movies never missing and never being hit I wonder if you do not set yourself up for a shock when the situation turns out differently than you have visualized in the past.

“But you never train yourself or your subordinates to fail.”

Again, I AM not saying to continually dwell on the losing but I am saying to ignore the possibility is foolish and unhealthy in my opinion and experiences. Far better I have found to start at the losing and teach how to adapt and overcome and turn the losing to winning. To start from the winning and end at the winning seems limiting to me. Your mileage may vary and I can live with that.

What I wrote in the other post in this thread;

“I am not saying to dwell on the negative but I am saying to taste them. Feel it happening and then be able to counter them. To deny that the fear is possible denies a chance to learn to overcome it. Being able to visualize negative outcomes helps to reinforce the traits or actions needed for positive outcomes. While visualizing the negative being able to change the action into a positive allows one to do the same in real life.”

Archangel M continued with;

“But you never train yourself or your subordinates to fail.”

“That used to be an "old school" trainig method, the student could never win, the teacher would "kill" everybody and the lesson was "see you do that and you get killed".”

I remember the shooting in NY that guy in the dark stairwell that was reaching for his wallet and ended up shot like 40 times (even into the bottom of his foot). I remember reading the officer interviews and how frightened they were even having one shooting while falling down the stairs. I remember reading how that fright could be traced to their last exercise in the academy when they would do a shoot no shoot exercise that ended up with them all being repeatedly killed. This exercise stayed with them so that when the victim reached for his wallet the officers acted from extreme fear and over reacted killing the unarmed man. That IS NOT the kind of training/visualization I am talking about. But I am talking about being able to visualize being shot and what that can mean, why it happened, what can be learned from it and then how to survive it and overcome it. It motivates learning to shoot off handed; it motivates to have that will written out, it motivates to spend a little more time training honestly.



Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

Not related to much at all but I was curious as I didn't see what the issue was with the word hero in my first reading of the thread.

A quick search reveled 12 posts where the word “hero’ was used in this thread. Not counting this single post of mine where I used the word hero seven times in one post.

Not counting quoting somebody in the post

Mbuzzy used the word hero two times in one post
Sgtmac_46 used the word hero seven times in six posts
Hkfuie used the word hero once in one post
Arnisador used the word hero once in one post
Deaf Smith used the word hero two times (but once it was in the title of a link he was posting to) in two posts

Funny how a word can go by almost unnoticed by one and absolutly push the button of another. Curious. :idunno:

gah, I shouldn't post when tired.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Archangel M]

I think we just may have a communications difference. If by visualization you mean rehearsing one hand shooting, prone shooting, close retention shooting while being hit..thats fine. If you mean actually rehearshing a shootout and imagining "loosing"..i.e. getting hit and dwelling on the fear and pain...I would say that thats not what I would advise.

We use simunitions..it hurts when you get hit. We train officers to keep on going no matter how many times they are hit, we take a hand or legs away and make them continue. Thats the "visualization" we allow them. We dont want them to mentally dwell on "failure" we want them to react to getting hit and having to perform "limited". The way we look at it "failure" is when you are dead and cant fight any more. As long as you can keep going we want them in the "win" mindset.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I must agree w/Sgtmac on the visualization. You train to adapt to a situation...dealing with wounds, one hand shooting/reloading etc. But you never train yourself or your subordinates to fail.

That used to be an "old school" trainig method, the student could never win, the teacher would "kill" everybody and the lesson was "see you do that and you get killed". Modern methods have the student "win" as long as they do as they were taught. And if they dont they may get "shot", but you train them to fight on until they win.

Exactly! We've found that training officers that if they got hit by rounds 'They were dead'.....taught them to BE dead if they got hit by rounds for real.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wonder if we so not agree more than disagree. I wonder how you train to adapt to a situation if you can never see yourself ‘losing’. Why train shooting with both hands if you only visualize you’re making the basket and winning the hundred bucks? If you only visualize shooting like the cowboys in the movies never missing and never being hit I wonder if you do not set yourself up for a shock when the situation turns out differently than you have visualized in the past.

To 'LOSE' is to fail.....what you're talking about, as I already pointed out is 'IF/THEN' training for contingencies, Plan B training.....and entirely different concept from visualizing 'LOSING'. The outcome is that I always have to win, no matter what adversity is in between.....visualizing losing is the first step to losing.

Again, I AM not saying to continually dwell on the losing but I am saying to ignore the possibility is foolish and unhealthy in my opinion and experiences. Far better I have found to start at the losing and teach how to adapt and overcome and turn the losing to winning. To start from the winning and end at the winning seems limiting to me. Your mileage may vary and I can live with that.

Unhealthy? Really? Because if you get unlucky and die you won't be as surprised if you imagined it before hand?

I remember the shooting in NY that guy in the dark stairwell that was reaching for his wallet and ended up shot like 40 times (even into the bottom of his foot). I remember reading the officer interviews and how frightened they were even having one shooting while falling down the stairs. I remember reading how that fright could be traced to their last exercise in the academy when they would do a shoot no shoot exercise that ended up with them all being repeatedly killed. This exercise stayed with them so that when the victim reached for his wallet the officers acted from extreme fear and over reacted killing the unarmed man. That IS NOT the kind of training/visualization I am talking about. But I am talking about being able to visualize being shot and what that can mean, why it happened, what can be learned from it and then how to survive it and overcome it. It motivates learning to shoot off handed; it motivates to have that will written out, it motivates to spend a little more time training honestly.



Regards
Brian King

It's a nice canard, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion......that incident has JACK to do with visualizing failure.......in fact, all it has to do with is failing recognize and object. How visualizing failure would have correctly allowed the officers to recognize a wallet from a gun only you apparently know.


Visualizing failure is the first toward failing.......every loser visualizes losing, every loser will tell you he figured he was going to lose from the outset. Consistent winners will tell you that they never imagine losing. Fighters will tell you if they imagined losing to their opponent, they wouldn't enter the ring.

Visualizing losing isn't a plan of action and success, it's a reflex many people do to brace themselves for FAILURE!



Again, if you have an example of how visualizing true FAILURE (as opposed to, say the gun jamming, and you SUCCESSFULLY clearing it) is of benefit, i'm all ears!

Most of the time I hear it along the lines of 'There's always someone bigger and badder', but that statements always been a justification of fear, not a plan of action.......some of us don't have the luxury of the fearful 'there's always someone bigger and badder' mindset.....I don't care if he's bigger and badder, I plan on CHEATING!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not related to much at all but I was curious as I didn't see what the issue was with the word hero in my first reading of the thread.

A quick search reveled 12 posts where the word “hero’ was used in this thread. Not counting this single post of mine where I used the word hero seven times in one post.

Not counting quoting somebody in the post

Mbuzzy used the word hero two times in one post
Sgtmac_46 used the word hero seven times in six posts
Hkfuie used the word hero once in one post
Arnisador used the word hero once in one post
Deaf Smith used the word hero two times (but once it was in the title of a link he was posting to) in two posts

Funny how a word can go by almost unnoticed by one and absolutly push the button of another. Curious. :idunno:

gah, I shouldn't post when tired.

Regards
Brian King

Allow me to explain, then.....the word 'Hero' as it has been thrown around was MEANT to be a pejorative by those who initiated it's use in this thread, as in 'Getting everyone killed trying to be a hero'........it PUSHED the buttons it was intended to push as a back-handed pejorative insult.

There are also graveyards full of people who think that they are heroes and got themselves shot.

And as far as i'm concerned, shooting it out with the suspects I place that on the same level as running away......it's at least a plan of action that puts your life in your own hands, rather than surrendering it to the presumed good graces of armed sociopaths.

 

[Archangel M]

A good resource on this issue:

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol14/table.htm

 

[Brian King]

Archangel M wrote:

“I think we just may have a communications difference.”

Roger that, When training with military units you have to use the language that they are used to using and understand. When training with police officers and units you have to use the language that they use and understand same as when working with medical units and professionals. It is more difficult when web posting as the target audience is wider and unspecific.

“If by visualization you mean rehearsing one hand shooting, prone shooting, close retention shooting while being hit..thats fine.”

That is a part of it sir, but not just shooting off handed or otherwise limited being limited, but understanding and feeling why you are doing so. How many officers do you see sir shooting one handed with their other hand curled into a fist and placed on their chest? If trying to train to stay in the fight despite the wounds then the wounds have to at least be acknowledged in my opinion and counted for. If you are limiting mobility for instance because of a simulated leg wound it does little good for the trainee to be able to run around with out even a limp. Depending on the wound being simulated put a couple of thumb tacks into the bottom of their foot for a hour or two, short chain a large kettlebell to their lower leg for a few drills, tie one or both legs bent up so their foot or feet is now stuck up near their backside and let them continue the drill(s). They need to feel the limitation (visualization of working while limited helps i.e visualize the blood dripping and the limb not working properly) and to experience dealing with the limitation and coming up with a solution despite the limitation. Often the solution ends up being a good one whether limited or completely 100% good to go.

“If you mean actually rehearshing a shootout and imagining "loosing"..i.e. getting hit and dwelling on the fear and pain...I would say that thats not what I would advise.”

Every single class that I teach we incorporate fear and pain and learning how to accept it understand it and keep going and how to use it for our benefit. I was at a combat Hapkido seminar in Colorado and the pressure point master was having a difficult time getting the proper reaction from me (both he and the grand master) and he being familiar with the type of training that we do made the comment that I have beat the pain out, beat the sensation of pain out. It was a misunderstanding on his part. We do not become desensitized as in the pain is not felt or even that it is ignored, we in fact become more aware of it and simply understand that it is just pain and accept it. There is a difference. So no we do not IGNORE the fear and the pain like it is something bad to be avoided but rather accept it as a teaching/learning tool. “Poznai Sebia”. This is regardless of the type of work being learned. A for instance, we have been having very foggy days and nights here (I am very near the water) so last Saturday’s class in the morning I decided to work on some sensitivity drills. One set of drills was to have the student’s pair up and student A would snap their fingers and the other student of the pair would listen closely. I then had student A walk across the field for anywhere between 29 and 63 meters or so. Their job was to observe and to snap their fingers once every three seconds. Partner B was able to watch Partner A walking off (All partner A’s were directed to walk in the same direction) and get a general idea of where they were heading. I then had partner B shut their eyes and find their partner. If they found the wrong partner then they and their partner had push-ups. The repeats of the drill had partner B watching but when the eyes were closed I had them spin quickly in tight circles 4/5 times and do a couple of back rolls (all with eyes closed) then find their partner. The final couple had the spins and rolls but then I added that they had very limited time (started at 30 seconds and decreased to 15 at the end but with a bit closer distances) so that they did not only have to listen for their particular partners snap and had to cover the distance blinded but now had to do it running. Our training area for these drills was rolling ‘cleared’ land that has large bushes and a lot of blackberry and other thorny spiked things growing about in the tall grass. The drills worked sensitivity, fear, tension management, competition and awareness and yes some bleeding and bruising.

“We use simunitions..it hurts when you get hit.”

As I posted much earlier in this thread post number 60 “Another way is training with honest stress inoculations.” We cannot afford simunitions even if we could get them; they are too expensive along with the modifications that you need for your firearm for those that must pay for their own training. We use good quality gas operated air soft handguns. We and our students wear long sleeve t-shirts or short sleeve t-shirts and long pants or cut offs, safety glasses and some wear a mouth guard, No other protection is advised. For stress inoculation to be effective there must be pain or the fear of pain at the minimum in my opinion. You can tell that it is good training when the students have a difficult time loading reloading their magazines as their bodies deal with the stress and tension.

“We train officers to keep on going no matter how many times they are hit, we take a hand or legs away and make them continue.”

Here is maybe where we have a difference in training sir. Our students already know that it isn’t over until it is over and almost all of our training reinforces this. For instance during hand to hand work or weapons take away/retention work a new student might stop when they goof up whatever they were trying to do and want to do a start over rather than continuing and making it work. This do over/ start over is discouraged. For force on force work depending on the purpose of the drill we often have the student that was hit take a knee and figure out why they were hit and what they might have been able to do differently. They then have to articulate the reason they think they were hit and the person that shot them has to articulate why they got the hit and the people observing have to articulate why the hit occurred. Then the drill is ran again…and again…and again if need be. On some drills they have to take a moment to acknowledge the hit (and the lesson that the hit allows) then drive on but with limitations sometimes severe limitations. Depends on the purpose of the particular drill and what attributes we are trying to build with it.

“We train officers to keep on going no matter how many times they are hit”

It is a good mindset to develop and not particularly difficult to develop with a bunch of meat eater type A’s officers. But there is also a danger to it. *war story time LOL* I remember this one guy. We were doing some field exercises one unit attacking a dug in position. They were supposed to be practicing leap frog type of maneuvers and teamwork to over run a position. We had blanks so no way of registering or acknowledging hits. This one guy would take off running; ignore cover, run for extended periods of time with out even shifting directions or pace. He was quickly nicknamed superman. He learned a lesson by taking a hit from something that knocked him butt over heels, bruising his chest and putting him out of commission for a few hours. A side note with the blank adaptor removed a weapon will still fire a blank (on semi but not auto) but there is a danger that gas will project the wadding from the blank for a distance also note that a small tootsie roll candy fits into a M-60 machine gun.

“The way we look at it "failure" is when you are dead and cant fight any more.”

I CAN understand that sir but one of the reasons of training force on force in my opinion is to learn. To be able to make mistakes (and die) while training when it only hurts and to be able to explore and practice those methods and movements that better your chance of survival if faced with the fight for real. Not to feed the ego, fuel the bravado and develop a sense of invulnerability. Confidence yes but thru awareness and practice.

“http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol14/table.htm “

Thanks for the link sir. I read that years ago but my google fu is weak so have not been able to reread it in as long. I have this time saved a copy

Warmest Regards
Brian King

Frankly I debated about posting this as I do think we agree more than disagree. But heck I key slowly and this took time, might as well post it.

 

[Brian King]

Sgtmac_46 wrote

“It's a nice canard, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion......that incident has JACK to do with visualizing failure.......in fact, all it has to do with is failing recognize and object. How visualizing failure would have correctly allowed the officers to recognize a wallet from a gun only you apparently know.”

Ummm A canard perhaps but what I wrote was in response to Archangel M writing “That used to be an "old school" trainig method, the student could never win, the teacher would "kill" everybody and the lesson was "see you do that and you get killed". The incident I wrote about that you called canard was the incident that prompted the change in training theories. Sorry that my writing skills are so inept that you were lost in the conversation and could not follow where I was going and who I was responding to. I thought the use of the quote function sufficient along with the posting of Archangel M’s name bolded but obviously I was mistaken.


As far as the rest of your posting goes sir I feel like I am in one of those movies where the American is overseas and cannot be understood by the locals so the conversation gets louder as if the foreigner is stupid and cannot understand or is deaf and cannot hear. I think that is what is happening here or something similar.

I will own the ‘failure’ of unclear communication. Trying to be as clear as possible here sgtmac_46 I understand what you are saying perfectly, I understand where you are coming from clearly I just do not agree with your conclusions or methods. For further clarification I am going to guess that you understand perfectly what I am saying and where I am coming from but you do not agree with my conclusions or methods. To continue to belabor the points does not make much sense to me and I can see no profit coming from doing so. Since ‘winning and losing’ is so important to you I will admit you ‘win’ and I ‘lose and fail’ for the sake of this thread. For me I agree to disagree still. Good luck to you

Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

sgtmac_46 posted this link

http://criminalsforguncontrol.com/

http://criminalsforguncontrol.com/

No that was f'n funny

Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[sgtmac_46]

sgtmac_46 posted this link



No that was f'n funny

Warmest regards
Brian King

We'll have to agree to disagree on the visualization.......but that WAS pretty funny wasn't it! :uhyeah:

 

[Archangel M]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the visualization.......but that WAS pretty funny wasn't it! :uhyeah:

Same-Same.