Officer Fires At Teen Armed With Realistic BB Gun

MJS

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http://www.courant.com/community/hamden/hc-hamden-bbgun-shots-1215-20101214,0,7730868.story

HAMDEN —
A 14-year-old boy who has armed robbery charges pending is facing new criminal charges after raising realistic BB gun at a police officer.
The officer fired his weapon at the teen during the incident Dec. 11, but did not strike him, police said.
Police began pursuing the teen at 2335 Dixwell Ave. where someone had reported three individuals behaving suspiciously near a motorized scooter.
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Officers found the scooter with a damaged ignition and a black-colored BB gun lying next to it. Moments later, Officer Eric Goclowski found a teenager behind a business and arrested him.
The 14-year-old fled on foot, but was chased down to a vacant parking lot at 2389 Dixwell Ave. As he ran, the teen held his waistband, implying he had a weapon, police said.
He reached into his waistband and pulled out what appeared to be a black firearm. Officer Mark Katz ordered him to drop the weapon. Instead, the teen pointed it at the officer who fired two rounds at the teen. The teen was not hit, police said.
Katz, along with Officers Nick Lovett and Craig Appleby then struggled with the individual, who was violently resisting. The officers found a black colored firearm lying next to the teen's body. It turned out to be a BB gun that looked very similar to the officer's weapon.
The 14 year-old was transported to Yale-New Haven Hospital with facial injuries.
On August 8, police charged the same 14-year-old individual in the armed robbery of a 53-year-old New Haven man. He was charged with first-degree robbery.

14yrs old and this kid is already starting off with armed robbery charges!! What a piece of trash, and the kids parents must be some real winners as well. Anyways...IMO, I'd have done the same thing the cop did. I mean, there're some weapons out there that look so real, its hard to tell whats real and what isnt.

This kid is lucky, as this situation could've turned out alot worse than it did. If this punk kid keeps up with his life of crime, next time, he may not be so lucky.

Have any of the LEOs out there encountered anything similar?
 

seasoned

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I can't imagine what this kid was thinking. From all the tv shows and news paper articles pertaining to police interaction with the public. When the cops are pointing their weapon at you and they say, let me see your hands, they need to come up empty and open. He is lucky the cop was a bad shot.........
 

Archangel M

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Bad Shot? Try getting in a foot chase like this officer who probably fired his shots at a moving target while running himself.

Even the "pros" you see on Youtube or on TV are either stationary or moving in a slow/controlled manner while firing.
 

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Yep, bad shot!!....... Number one, you DON"T RUN AND GUN"........Number two, when faced with a perp who turns and points a weapon at you, you damn better hit what your shooting at or you could be dead. Both the officer and the kid were very lucky that neither wound up dead.
 

Archangel M

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While I agree that running and gunning is a recipe for un-accounted rounds, if you are close enough to a guy in a chase who draws on you....well, I won't fault the officer for firing. Hits would have made him a "good shot" though eh?
 

seasoned

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While I agree that running and gunning is a recipe for un-accounted rounds, if you are close enough to a guy in a chase who draws on you....well, I won't fault the officer for firing. Hits would have made him a "good shot" though eh?[/quote]

No, hits would have let everone know where the rounds went.
 

MA-Caver

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To me the officer is justified in shooting... he has NO CLUE if it's a real weapon or just a bb gun that at worse would put out his eye. As I see it a police officer cannot waste the precious seconds (or even milliseconds) it would take to see if a gun is real or no. All he knew was it was an armed robbery and the suspect fled the scene of the crime... this makes them armed and dangerous. Point an object that looks like a gun at an officer and expect to get shot at with extreme prejudice. Cops jobs are dangerous enough as it is without worrying if a gun is real or not.
 

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Yep, bad shot!!....... Number one, you DON"T RUN AND GUN"........Number two, when faced with a perp who turns and points a weapon at you, you damn better hit what your shooting at or you could be dead. Both the officer and the kid were very lucky that neither wound up dead.

You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world. ;)
 

sgtmac_46

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Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.

Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.

In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.
 

MA-Caver

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Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.

Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.

In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.
Thanks for that.
After all my own experience on the range (standing and shooting) and discussions with those who carry firearms as a part of their job requirements (soldiers and LEO's) I've realized that the ole' Hollywood run and shoot should be given credit of at least 5% realism... the fact that they're holding the weapon, have it pointed in the right (general) direction of their intended (pretended) target and they're pulling the trigger... other than that... :idunno: I doubt they'd be able to hit the side of a barn at point blank... but that's why they ask audiences to "suspend reality for a little while".
 

sgtmac_46

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Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.

Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.

In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.

I should have said 'I've been fortunate enough NOT to have to put rounds in another human being'......
 

sgtmac_46

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Thanks for that.
After all my own experience on the range (standing and shooting) and discussions with those who carry firearms as a part of their job requirements (soldiers and LEO's) I've realized that the ole' Hollywood run and shoot should be given credit of at least 5% realism... the fact that they're holding the weapon, have it pointed in the right (general) direction of their intended (pretended) target and they're pulling the trigger... other than that... :idunno: I doubt they'd be able to hit the side of a barn at point blank... but that's why they ask audiences to "suspend reality for a little while".
Good points.....

It's both easy and extraordinarily difficult to hit another person in a gunfight, for a wide variety of reasons even beyond simply marksmanship........the fact is that examples exist of well trained shooters missing with numerous shots, as well as examples where gunman made extraordinary hits under pressure.
 
OP
M

MJS

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Even in the real world, as its been said, things probably are not as perfect as if you were standing still, all of the ducks lined up in your favor. OTOH, I doubt everyone standing still, firing at a non-moving target, is always hitting center mass.

Quite a few years ago, I had the opportunity to use a firearms training simulator, that was brought to the PD I dispatch for. I wasn't moving, but the scene that was playing out in front of me, was. There were a number of shots that didn't hit the intended target, for a few reasons, 1) being the fact that there was obvious movement, so trying to aim and hit something thats moving, unless you really train for that, is going to be hard, and 2) I dont go to the range.

This is why I often say that if people are going to carry a gun for SD, it'd be wise to try to find a way to train in some low light, stressfull situation, moving targets, etc. Imagine not doing that, someone breaks into your home, and in all the confusion, you start shooting and shots go thru the walls, possibly hitting a family member, your neighbor if you live in a apt or condo.

I wasn't there, but I'd imagine or hope that the officer got his gun out, once he saw this kid holding his waistband. If so, then yes, its very possible he'd have been in a firing while moving situation.

Another point to consider...I'm sure its not exactly easy to fire accurately after running. Tired from running, now you have to compensate for breathing heavy and aim straight. Are your hands shaking? And of course, I always have to chuckle when I hear people say, "Why couldn't the officer just shoot the person in the arm or leg? Why did they have to shoot them in the chest?"
 

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Now mix in "how many rounds did you fire officer?" and "Why did you fire 13 times officer?"

I also like listening to IPSC and 3-gun shooters go on about how better they are than LEO's (which they ARE in terms of gun handling and practice btw)...but unless they have some real world gunfights under their belts that is all academic. I'd wager that even your gun pros would be shocked at their hit ratios when someone is running around and shooting real death at them.
 

crushing

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14yrs old and this kid is already starting off with armed robbery charges!! What a piece of trash, and the kids parents must be some real winners as well. Anyways...IMO, I'd have done the same thing the cop did. I mean, there're some weapons out there that look so real, its hard to tell whats real and what isnt.

This kid is lucky, as this situation could've turned out alot worse than it did. If this punk kid keeps up with his life of crime, next time, he may not be so lucky.

Have any of the LEOs out there encountered anything similar?

I don't know if this child is a piece of trash and his parents are losers, but it is possible the child is depressed and wants to die and the parents are doing what they can to get him the help he needs. There isn't enough information in the article to know.
 

seasoned

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Bad Shot? Try getting in a foot chase like this officer who probably fired his shots at a moving target while running himself.

Even the "pros" you see on Youtube or on TV are either stationary or moving in a slow/controlled manner while firing.

You are most correct, having been through all the mandated firearms prescribed courses in NYS for Peace Officer, I have not been in, or probably never will be in, your above quote. My duties take me into the most ideal situations. Working for (4) town courts, it would end up mostly hands on. Although, the possibility is always there to draw a firearm, accuracy is of utmost importance for me because of the amount of people there, on any given court night. My comments are drawn from my particular situation, and in no way would I want to give the impression that I could or would understand the mind set of the officers involved in the OP. With that said, I can only hope that if ever put into that situation, I would act accordingly, to the training I have had.
 

seasoned

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Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.

Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.

In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.

I for one have never seen the "elephant" but can only hope and pray that if ever but into that situation I will act according to training. Of course, training is one thing and real life is another. With that said, you still need to carry a certain mind set, depend on training, and hope any split second decisions are the right ones. :asian:
 

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http://www.courant.com/community/hamden/hc-hamden-bbgun-shots-1215-20101214,0,7730868.story



14yrs old and this kid is already starting off with armed robbery charges!! What a piece of trash, and the kids parents must be some real winners as well. Anyways...IMO, I'd have done the same thing the cop did. I mean, there're some weapons out there that look so real, its hard to tell whats real and what isnt.

This kid is lucky, as this situation could've turned out alot worse than it did. If this punk kid keeps up with his life of crime, next time, he may not be so lucky.

Have any of the LEOs out there encountered anything similar?
Yes. Some years back, I'm stopping at McDonalds for a moment when a guy approaches me, and tells me that some kids are showing a gun around. Just then, the call comes out for kids with a gun there...

Pull the kid out, and ask him what he's got... and begins to pull a gun from his sweatshirt pocket. Grab him, tell him not to move -- and I pull the Airsoft-type gun out myself. Until it was all the way out, and I was handling it, it looked almost just like the Glock I had on my hip. Slightly different scenario -- and the kid would have been dead.

There's a time and a place for toy guns. Committing robberies is damn sure not the time or place. Kid in the OP is damn lucky to still be using oxygen.
 

jks9199

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On the issue of accuracy...

There's a whole lot going on in a very short time here. Not only is the officer dealing with the effects of the adrenal cocktail on his body, elevating his heart rate, altering his perceptions -- but he's also been running and chasing someone, further influencing his heart rate and motor control. In the real world, we tend to find that people shoot maybe 50% of their "normal" accuracy... unless they've been the recipients of very advanced and very difficult to provide training.
 

CoryKS

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Totally irresponsible. Why didn't he just shoot the gun out of the kid's hand?


*ducks*
 
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