McDonalds robbery Sugar Land texas

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Deaf Smith

Deaf Smith

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arnisador,

Unless you have a crystal ball there is no way you could have guaranteed no one would be hurt. One has no idea if the robbers are just after money or will take you into the back room and shoot you.

You could have easly seen the same video where all of them were murdered on the floor at the end.

And that is why it's up to the victim to decide if they will resist or not. There is no right or wrong as to if the victims submit or fight back cause as I said, one has no crystal ball to tell the future.

Deaf
 

MA-Caver

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In that case... watching... resistance would've been futile. No, seriously it would've... they were armed... the employees and customers (??) were not. Not a bright idea to go up against multiple armed assailants. Besides policy at the restaurant (nation wide) is DO NOT RESIST... if so then immediate termination... even if successful.
Even from this non-LEO's POV ... everyone did the right thing... nobody got hurt.
There is a time and a place... had it been ONE guy... maybe.
 

Rich Parsons

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arnisador,

Unless you have a crystal ball there is no way you could have guaranteed no one would be hurt. One has no idea if the robbers are just after money or will take you into the back room and shoot you.

You could have easly seen the same video where all of them were murdered on the floor at the end.

And that is why it's up to the victim to decide if they will resist or not. There is no right or wrong as to if the victims submit or fight back cause as I said, one has no crystal ball to tell the future.

Deaf


Deaf,

I think people should Carry with proper training.

I think those that choose to do so, should have the right.


But your arguement of crystal ball goes either both ways and does not hold water.

One could as easily argue that if you pulled a gun and shot then the woman with a child was shot and killed. There could be a billion what if's.


It does nothing for the arguement to carry, when you present it like this.

You do nothing but anger those who are opposed and close their minds.

You do nothing but anger those on the fence to not listen to why it is a right protected by the US Constitution.

A well placed arguement is great for a point.

A bad arguement for a point could be worse than no arguement.



Thanks
 

arnisador

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If I was in there, I certainly would have wanted to have a gun...but might not have used it if things played out like this. Would I want everyone in there to have a gun? The odds of an innocent bystander being struck could be very high that way.
 

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If I was in there, I certainly would have wanted to have a gun...but might not have used it if things played out like this. Would I want everyone in there to have a gun? The odds of an innocent bystander being struck could be very high that way.
Aye, were I legal to carry and if I were there and packing, I too would have not drawn until I felt circumstances required me to. If a shot had been fired then yes, I would've drawn and moved myself to a place where others would be out of the line of fire and try to place myself with something in between me and the robbers. If the robbers were worked up in a huff enough to start shooting then yes, again I'd draw and move to cover and direct everyone else to the floor and defend myself accordingly.
But carrying does not ALWAYS demand that you draw ... even in incidents like this. The police, yes because it is what they're trained to do, where as the average citizen is not. They're just trained to shoot and defend themselves. Cops are trained to shoot and defend themselves and everyone else. They have the law on their side. So do you but well... you should know the difference by now... don't you?
Judgment and keeping a cool head goes a long way vs accuracy and speed.
 

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No one was hurt...it's not clear that resistance is the best self-defense move there.
I guess if you're psychic you can predict no one will be hurt.....which martial arts teaches that?

What is the difference between a man pointing at you and NOT shooting versus a man pointing it at you and shooting? Hint, it's only discernible in HIND SIGHT!

The problem here is that inaction puts your life entirely in the hands of criminal sociopaths and their good will......hope is not a plan of action.


I guess the issue could be summed up with ONE SINGLE QUESTION! At what point do you decide it's 'turning bad'? When the first person gets shot by the robbers? The second? The third? For me it's 'turning bad' when bad men with guns start pointing them in my general direction.


“We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is okay as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene.” -Col. Jeff Cooper
 

sgtmac_46

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In that case... watching... resistance would've been futile. No, seriously it would've... they were armed... the employees and customers (??) were not. Not a bright idea to go up against multiple armed assailants. Besides policy at the restaurant (nation wide) is DO NOT RESIST... if so then immediate termination... even if successful.
Even from this non-LEO's POV ... everyone did the right thing... nobody got hurt.
There is a time and a place... had it been ONE guy... maybe.
What about when they start herding folks in to the coolers? Is it time to resist then? Or cooperate and 'hope' for the best?
 

sgtmac_46

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Aye, were I legal to carry and if I were there and packing, I too would have not drawn until I felt circumstances required me to. If a shot had been fired then yes, I would've drawn and moved myself to a place where others would be out of the line of fire and try to place myself with something in between me and the robbers. If the robbers were worked up in a huff enough to start shooting then yes, again I'd draw and move to cover and direct everyone else to the floor and defend myself accordingly.
But carrying does not ALWAYS demand that you draw ... even in incidents like this. The police, yes because it is what they're trained to do, where as the average citizen is not. They're just trained to shoot and defend themselves. Cops are trained to shoot and defend themselves and everyone else. They have the law on their side. So do you but well... you should know the difference by now... don't you?
Judgment and keeping a cool head goes a long way vs accuracy and speed.
Does a criminal sociopath have to work himself 'up in a huff' before shooting? And you're going to wait until 'shots are fired'? So at least one person has to be shot before we take the threat seriously?

Where does this notion come from that we imagine we will predict the moment before an armed robbery turns in to murder? Apparently i've not had that training.
 

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The FACT is that no matter what you do in this situation......ACT, and risk making the badmen mad, or simply submit and hope for the best, you may end up dead because of it, and no statistics will support that simply submitting is the best course of action.......as there are graveyards full of cooperative armed robbery victims.

Not to belabor the issue......but you guys are only really saying what should be done in this situation because you happen to know how it turned out......and that's the funny thing about hindsight......it doesn't tell us anything about the FUTURE!
 
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Deaf Smith

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sgtmac pretty much says it all.

Guys, I'm not demanding everyone whip out their roscoe and blaze away without any thought. It's up to each person to decide when, how, and what they would do. But in the video shown, there were opportunities to stop the robbers.

Now that tape showed the three very unorganized. They moved all around and many times did not concentrate on those sitting at the table. There were opportunities for a person who was well trained to take action. The only catch is it would take guts. And that's not so easy to get.

And one can take on three. In NY a female cop drew her 5 shot .38 snub (of all guns!) when three armed bank robbers burst in (and one had a .45 auto) and she shot all three! No one else was hurt but those three she plugged.

I know a little about this subject as I've held one burgler at gunpoint and I've (with another man) chased down a purse snatcher and held him for police.

It can be done and done well. But it takes some guts to be willing to risk getting hurt.

Deaf
 

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The FACT is that no matter what you do in this situation......ACT, and risk making the badmen mad, or simply submit and hope for the best, you may end up dead because of it, and no statistics will support that simply submitting is the best course of action.......as there are graveyards full of cooperative armed robbery victims.

Not to belabor the issue......but you guys are only really saying what should be done in this situation because you happen to know how it turned out......and that's the funny thing about hindsight......it doesn't tell us anything about the FUTURE!

I thought that is what I was trying to say.

It is bad for someone to assume that anything will happen.

With A gun and without a gun.
 

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There are also graveyards full of people who think that they are heroes and got themselves shot.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that carrying is fine for those who are properly trained. Although part of that training should be discretion. There is a point when you have no choice and it is true that the decision is a personal one that can ONLY be made in the moment. It is the same to say that you WOULD have acted in hindsight as to say that you would not have.

My feeling is that if you don't resist, true, you are placing yourself at the hands of the attacker. But if you do resist, you are giving them no choice and escalating the situation. In essence, you are forcing the attacker to up the ante. Most robberies go down with no resistance and no deaths - sometimes they are caught sometimes they aren't. As long as no one dies, it is a good thing. In most cases, the ones where someone dies, it happens because someone tried to resist, did something to aggravate the guys with the guns or tried to be a hero.

I'm not saying that no one should ever do anything, but knowing where the line is between needlessly putting yourself and others at risk to be a hero and just letting the robbery happen is one that you will never know until you're in the situation in question.
 

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There are also graveyards full of people who think that they are heroes and got themselves shot.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that carrying is fine for those who are properly trained. Although part of that training should be discretion. There is a point when you have no choice and it is true that the decision is a personal one that can ONLY be made in the moment. It is the same to say that you WOULD have acted in hindsight as to say that you would not have.

My feeling is that if you don't resist, true, you are placing yourself at the hands of the attacker. But if you do resist, you are giving them no choice and escalating the situation. In essence, you are forcing the attacker to up the ante. Most robberies go down with no resistance and no deaths - sometimes they are caught sometimes they aren't. As long as no one dies, it is a good thing. In most cases, the ones where someone dies, it happens because someone tried to resist, did something to aggravate the guys with the guns or tried to be a hero.

I'm not saying that no one should ever do anything, but knowing where the line is between needlessly putting yourself and others at risk to be a hero and just letting the robbery happen is one that you will never know until you're in the situation in question.
That's true, but if we were to go about collecting anecdotal evidence of folks who were shot RESISTING armed robberies while armed, and those shot unarmed, and cooperating, i'm betting cash money my pile of dead cooperative folks would be MUCH LARGER than yours of those killed while resisting robbery with their own weapons.

In fact, i'd be willing to bet the list of those killed cooperating will vastly exceed those killed as a result of fighting back period, even unarmed, not even COUNTING those armed themselves with CCW's.


And 'being a hero' has JACK to do with it.....you're ALREADY needlessly at risk by virtue of some criminal sociopaths showing up pointing guns at you! Being a hero is not my intent......not waiting to see if the good will of our good friends with guns will prevent them from shooting the witnesses is my intent.........heroics are the point, as if I start shooting I don't want it to REMOTELY be a fair fight.......my hope is it will look something like legal murder it will be so unfair!

The ONLY difference between you guys and me......is I don't put so much faith in the humanity of armed robbers to merely want the money.

My feeling is that if you don't resist, true, you are placing yourself at the hands of the attacker. But if you do resist, you are giving them no choice and escalating the situation. In essence, you are forcing the attacker to up the ante. Most robberies go down with no resistance and no deaths - sometimes they are caught sometimes they aren't. As long as no one dies, it is a good thing. In most cases, the ones where someone dies, it happens because someone tried to resist, did something to aggravate the guys with the guns or tried to be a hero.

And I don't plan on 'forcing' the robbers to do anything......i'm not pulling out the Roscoe and demanding that they drop their guns....they're not going to get that chance......I fully intend to execute everyone of them, so that they wake up in hell before they even know that they've lost control of the situation!

As to your pronouncement that most folks die in robberies because they resist, I think you've been watching too much TV......I think you'll find, if you actually research it, that MOST folks who die in robberies DIE COOPERATING!
 
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Archangel M

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If we are going to talk anecdotal..most of the robberies where someone fought back that I have seen ended with the BG running away. Granted some DID trade shots, but I havent seen one situation where they stuck around to win a gunfight and then complete the robbery.
 

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I thought that is what I was trying to say.

It is bad for someone to assume that anything will happen.

With A gun and without a gun.
The only difference is that WITH a gun, I have a hand in my destiny......without one I am a passive spectator to just how human the criminal sociopath robbers feel like being........unless you can teach me how to more skillfully be a victim so as to ENSURE that the robbers really, really, really don't want to shoot me.

With a gun, I have the option of deciding to take advantage of opportunity, and it's my skill (and luck) that will save me or not, not just the good will of bad men........I don't consider HOPE a plan of action.
 

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If we are going to talk anecdotal..most of the robberies where someone fought back that I have seen ended with the BG running away. Granted some DID trade shots, but I havent seen one situation where they stuck around to win a gunfight and then complete the robbery.
Bingo!

And we can find dozens of examples of clerks and by-standers who cooperated 100%......only to get executed for their troubles.

The truth is, the 'hero who gets everyone killed' is a product of the movies......how many times do we see that acted out on the TV screen? So much that it's become perceived reality.
 

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sgtmac pretty much says it all.

Guys, I'm not demanding everyone whip out their roscoe and blaze away without any thought. It's up to each person to decide when, how, and what they would do. But in the video shown, there were opportunities to stop the robbers.

Now that tape showed the three very unorganized. They moved all around and many times did not concentrate on those sitting at the table. There were opportunities for a person who was well trained to take action. The only catch is it would take guts. And that's not so easy to get.

And one can take on three. In NY a female cop drew her 5 shot .38 snub (of all guns!) when three armed bank robbers burst in (and one had a .45 auto) and she shot all three! No one else was hurt but those three she plugged.

I know a little about this subject as I've held one burgler at gunpoint and I've (with another man) chased down a purse snatcher and held him for police.

It can be done and done well. But it takes some guts to be willing to risk getting hurt.

Deaf
Exactly! I'm not telling anyone else what to do......but it's not my plan to sit and wait for them to decide whether to shoot all of us.

Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action.....taking the offensive. Often times violence and aggression will save you when caution will not.
 

sgtmac_46

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It doesn't take long googling robberies involving shootings to notice the shear number of shootings involving cooperative victims......i've yet to find one finding one shot resisting with a weapon. While i'm sure there may be a couple, the shear number of cooperatives is staggering.

CHICAGO (Thomson Financial) - A gunman shot dead five women in a robbery that went awry at a shopping mall in a Chicago suburb, police said.
http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2008/02/03/afx4607847.html

A 7-Eleven store clerk is in critical condition at Kern Medical Center after an overnight robbery. It's a crime that's shocked customers, and police said it's particularly senseless violence.

Bakersfield police are looking for two unidentified suspects who allegedly shot 24-year-old Gurpeet Singh Brar in the stomach after robbing the 7-Eleven store on Pacheco Road just after midnight Wednesday morning.

Detectives say the two men came into the store, they got money and lottery tickets -- and then one robber shot the clerk before they headed out the door.

Frequent customer Stacy Eveland was shaken up, hearing about the crime. "It's pretty scary," said Eveland Wednesday afternoon. "It's kind of upsetting to me. I don't know why they would shoot him."

That's something police can't figure out either. "The victim totally complied with every demand the suspects gave him, which is what we tell people to do," said Bakersfield Police Sgt. Greg Terry. "And there is apparently absolutely no reason -- as the suspects are leaving the store -- one of them shoots the clerk."

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/36935024.html

A clerk at a Ventura convenience store was shot and killed early this morning during an attempted robbery, police said. The security tape shows two men enter the store, one approaching the counter and one watching the door. The silent footage shows the gunman raise a large firearm and point it off camera at the clerk.

The initial investigation into the killing indicated Odle was killed without provocation, police said. http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/dec/26/no-headline---nxxfchomicide27/

COLUMBUS, Ohio —Two days after Christmas, an armed robbery suspect shot a local merchant, sending a community into outrage.
According to police, on Dec. 27 at about 5 p.m. an armed man entered the Clintonville Market, with the apparent motive of robbery, NBC 4‘s Mike Jackson reported.
But the man waved his gun around, pointing the weapon at customers before shooting the clerk, 73-year-old Faiq Haboul, known throughout the community as Mo.
“For some reason, apparently the clerk didn’t move fast enough for the robber and the robber shot him in the upper body then fled,“ said Columbus Police Det. Gerald Milner.


http://www.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/crime...for_suspect_in_market_robbery_shooting/11675/

Chester Yeom was filling in for a friend March 4, 2007, at Belmont Market on Southeast Belmont Street, when Jimmy Massaki Kashi shot Yeom in the neck while attempting to rob the store. He was sentenced to 35 years in prison for the shooting. http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/08/belmont_grocery_victim_dies_1.html




Need I remind everyone of what we used to tell HI-JACKING victims to do.....COOPERATE! Until 9/11 taught us the folly of THAT piece of advice.
 

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