Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

@Monkey Turned Wolf @Buka I know exactly what USSD and that story was...but my friend doesn't. Can you explain to my friend what USSD was and what was bad about it?

 

[HighKick]

I disagree, that is not always the case. Fred Villari’s United Studios of self defense is a perfect example.

I don’t doubt Skribs’ description of events at all. I can only speak from an east coaster’s experience but I was there in the early seventies when the TKD foray (which seemed like an invasion) first started, they were opening up everywhere.

And most of them displayed EXACTLY the behavior that Skribs describes about his TKD Master. And man, do they all LOVE that term Master.

I’ve always addressed Martial Arts instructor’s as Master if they included it in their title. Except for TKD, I addressed them as Sir and did so with respect.

What Skribs has described I saw first hand over and over and over again. All through the seventies and eighties on the east coast.

And please know I am not bashing the , I was a TKD man myself. What I’m talking about is a repeated and organized behavior on the part of a cartel of instructors to control
and manipulate clients on the east coast at one time - that I think still goes on today.

In part we are full agreement. There are controlling and over-bearing instructors in TKD and All other styles. And let's be honest, they are in every other avenue of life, job, home, other pastimes, etc...
A Lot of the Korean instructors who came over in the '70's wave of TKD would fit in your category simply because it is/was the 'Korean' way. I am not judging that as good or bad, it is just the way they were.

But the Skribs story goes much deeper, and I would never have written what I did if I did not believe there is enough written evidence to support it (on this particular individual basis).

To reiterate, I am not trying to bash him. We all need a kick in the teeth sometimes, but some seem to need it over and over until they finally get it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It was an "organized" invasion as a whole, military-like in execution with support from the government of S. Korea. TKD (headed by an army general) masters sent over here likely had fought in the brutal Korean War and were tough men who were given a new mission - establish a strong TKD presence in America. .

Though one could argue with the exact character of what is said it is an apt description and why General Choi is considered the "Founder ' of Tk-D" He created and developed the system by recruiting existing top MA talent "Korean Supermen" into the 29th infantry division. Used them as a resource to develop the new system, then with their athletic prowess and government resources could use military transports to travel for demos to other countries in order too impress people who would seek to learn the art. He also travel to the US for Military Officer training and convinced some like Jhoon Rhee to adopt the new system. Many of the instructors developed in the Military were encouraged to emigrate to other countries and and teach. Some 19 years later their was a radical change in the SK government rendering General Choi persona non grata yet it created a new "Tkd" - Develop system - Allowed Various systems to come under it's Tkd umbrella - create instructors - dispatch to other countries - format.

 

[HighKick]

So because I only tell one side of the story, my story has holes? That's not even a logical argument.

If there two sides to a story, which is EVERY time, this could not be more logical. Just like the give and take you and I are having in your current debacle.

Financial success isn't necessarily related to morals and ethics. Some people are very good in public and very bad in private. For example, the CEO at my previous job was very polite and collected in board meetings, but was known for screaming and cussing in meetings with employees.

To think that successful people can't be jerks, or that people can't be two-faced shows an incredible amount of naivety on your part.

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong. That does Not explicitly mean your way or viewpoint on all things.
'Good' can be subjective. A person can be near perfect ethically and morally, but still not have a personality that you gel with. Happens all the time. With some people, much more than others.

My plan was to prepare for the test, learn all the material, and then test under my former Master. Barring that, my plan was to find someone else who will test me. I was planning on paying for the fees, learning the requirements, meeting any expectations, and then testing.

The problem was people wouldn't return my calls or emails, and I didn't feel comfortable training at the other schools in my area for one reason or another.

I never said I was going to force someone to test me.

I never questioned your willingness to pay. Heck, you have been trying to short-cut the system for a long time so I assumed you would pay if someone was unethical enough to take your money for a KKW rank.
By 'people', I assume you mean other school owners? Not returning calls or emails should have been taken as another sign to nut-up and get your butt in a school, put you head down, close your mouth and just train. Instead, you want to jump to the front of the line every time.

On top of that, I've said he strung me along before I left, and was very deceptive about it upon my return.

Since I was not there, of course I cannot have an accurate opinion, but I will defer to my 'two-sides' analogy.
In a nutshell, you willingly went back to the 'biting hand you repeatedly fed' only after you tried a couple other avenues that you could not short-cut.

Not true at all. If you have the proper rank and the Master's license, you can promote up to 3rd Dan. I believe 4th and up may require promotion through a regional KKW board, but this is information I discovered after the incidents in this thread.

For what it's worth, my former Master told me that as a 6th Dan, soon to be 7th, he can promote me to 5th Dan, soon to be a ceiling of 6th.

I stand corrected and see that I made a typo that I cannot go back and correct. Up to 4th Dan with a Masters license is the norm.

5th Dan in what? Is it the Dan number you perceive as having value or from where a certificate originates? Just got to 4imprint and they will make you any certificate you want.

I have lambasted self-promotions. I have questioned the value of a KKW promotion based on KKW schools I have been to. However, I had recently decided it was a good idea to have the KKW certificate (based on my former Master's advice), and was actually leaning towards opening a KKW-affiliated school.

I didn't change my rank from 3rd Dan to 4th Dan. My former Master did. I tested for 4th degree under his school, and he promoted to 4th degree under his school, but he refused to promote me through Kukkiwon like he had done for 1st through 3rd degree. I claim the 4th degree rank because a 6th degree black belt promoted me from 3rd to 4th.

I have changed tracks from seeking KKW rank because my path to KKW rank has hit a dead end. I have changed plans to opening my own unaffiliated school, because I am not qualified to open a KKW school, but I am qualified to open an unaffiliated school.

KKW rank has strong value within Kukkiwon schools and the World Taekwondo (formerly World Taekwondo Federation) community. It has some value outside of that, in that a school affiliated with a different federation or no federation may recognize the Kukkiwon rank, but it has less value in an ITF school, ATA school, or an unaffiliated school than it does in a KKW school.

I got a bit of whiplash from that one.

Financially: Baseless accusation. You know nothing of my finances or my financial plan.
Mentally: False accusation. In fact, most people on this forum accuse me of overthinking everything.
Physically: Baseless and false accusation. You know nothing of my physical training because I don't post it on here. For the last 5 months, my training regiment has been every week:

• Daily practice of TKD curriculum for testing
• 5 classes cardio kickboxing and 10 classes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to build stamina
• Weekly lifting sessions with days for chest, back, and legs/core

I've changed my diet significantly. Cut probably 2000-3000 calories per day and increased the amount of healthy foods I have been eating. I have lost 25 pounds during these 5 months, and put on more muscle to boot. I have been physically training 3-4 hours per day.

I am continuing to grow as a coach through teaching jiu-jitsu and cardio kickboxing.

When I travelled for my test, I arrived two weeks early to learn as much as I could getting ready for testing. I volunteered my time to help out with his classes. He didn't have to accept my help, but he did. (And he made a big deal about how lucky I am that I get to help him for free, instead of him charging me money for teaching experience).

Financially: True. I do not know how deep your pockets are, but I do know you have made zero progress in actually starting your business. That is an indicator of lack of finances, financial fear, or both.
Mentally: On your comment we agree. There is a very common phrase that is quite apt. Paralysis by (over) analysis. It is looming large.
In scientific and engineering experiments, observation will only get you so far. Empirical evidence must move to concrete evidence through real-world testing and trial and error (confirm or disconfirm). Test, fail, change, adjust, try again until the error resolves to an acceptable level.
You have yet to move to the concrete evidence phase.
Physically: True. I do not know your training regimen or how knowledgeable and polished you are in any curriculum. I also don't know if this is/was simply a 'cram session' for the recent trip to your old instructor or normal, long time routine. It looks good on paper.

Pardon me for seeking the proper qualifications before I open a business. Would you recommend people drop out of law school and open their own law firm before passing the bar exam? Would you recommend people drop out of medical school and just start treating people out of a van?

Just because people give me advice doesn't mean it's good advice, or at least not the right advice for me. And in some cases, I may not have seen the advice, because I have put them on ignore - either because of the way they give advice or some unrelated reason. For example, one person once made the comment that a certain race of people shouldn't be taught martial arts because of historical actions taken by people of that race. Another person would bait me into explaining something, then would accuse me of mansplaining because I answered a question. These are not people I want to take advice from.

Other people have taken it upon themselves to claim a mentor/mentee relationship where none exists. They hide behind their rank and experience and claim superiority over me, and then refuse to listen to my side of any debate or argument. I learned in college that professors with this attitude tend not to be worth listening to, and I have applied that here as well.

As to you, you have not provided any specific examples from this thread of holes in my story. Your only evidence that there's holes in my story is that you're only hearing my side. However, you have levelled 4 baseless accusations and 3 false accusations against me.

You did say that I might dislike you for a lot of the reasons why I dislike my former my Master. You're right. He treated me with manipulation, deceit, and gaslighting. I disliked that about him, and I dislike that about you, too. I'm tired of arguing with your hallucinations, so I'm just going to stop.

C'mon man. You are Not comparing apples to apples.

Very true that all advice is Not good advice. But you actively cheery pick the advice that fits your bias.

I assume the mentor/mentee comment is directed at me.
To be VERY clear, I suppose NO superiority over anyone in ANY subject or context. Not my job and does NOT fit into my faith.
But my personality is rather direct. Before I had became a LEO, we all had to get a psych profile. Mine came back as 'brutally honest'. I had never thought about it before, but that is nail on the head for me.
I am 8th Dan, 5th Dan, 1st Dan & 2nd Instructor. None of which I ever mentioned before in the thread.
Rank? Big deal. But I did this, some concurrently, over the course of about 40 years. I never tried to short-cut or end-around the process. You have.

You have contradicted yourself in at least 2-3 of your posts just in this thread alone. Again, I encourage you to go back, and really, really read what you posted.

Where have I manipulated you or been deceitful to you? I have never even met you. I don't really know what gaslighting is, so there is that. If it means saying/doing things to get someone to react or see things in a different light then yes, I have gaslit the h**l out of you.
Something to think on. My favorite and surprisingly accurate and effective saying when gathering for an engineering meeting (or any type of meeting really) is to "get All the liars in the same room". We are all guilty of it, sometimes when we don't even know it or sincerely believe the lie. Good or bad, evidence is evidence.

Don't know if you will take the time to read any of this or not. But as I have said in this thread on a number of occasions, I am purely trying to help and nothing else. Your viewpoint is Very narrow and, on some things needs to change.
I am not affected one iota whether you succeed or fail but I do know the failure rate of MA's schools is Very, Very high. And it is as much or more about the business aspect than the product/service. Yes, that is a tough one for most instructor/school owners to swallow, but it is true for any product/service. Some of the best MA's I know could not teach their way out of a paper bag. Some business-people I know could train for a month and do an admirable job of teaching a beginner. But neither of these may be business savvy enough to run a business of any type.
I honestly cannot tell where you fall in this equation but have my suspicions.

It is up to you whether you read this or not. Again, will not move my meter either way.
And again, not trying to be a hard ankle, simply trying to help.

 

[HighKick]

Though one could argue with the exact character of what is said it is an apt description and why General Choi is considered the "Founder ' of Tk-D" He created and developed the system by recruiting existing top MA talent "Korean Supermen" into the 29th infantry division. Used them as a resource to develop the new system, then with their athletic prowess and government resources could use military transports to travel for demos to other countries in order too impress people who would seek to learn the art. He also travel to the US for Military Officer training and convinced some like Jhoon Rhee to adopt the new system. Many of the instructors developed in the Military were encouraged to emigrate to other countries and and teach. Some 19 years later their was a radical change in the SK government rendering General Choi persona non grata yet it created a new "Tkd" - Develop system - Allowed Various systems to come under it's Tkd umbrella - create instructors - dispatch to other countries - format.

Great history lesson.
What needs to be emphasized loudly based on the give and take in this thread is that most of these instructors were already at or near Master rank in their own right. They already had years/decades in training. They did not take a 1-day "become a Master" course then move to America.

 

[Flying Crane]

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong.

I disagree with this statement. From what I have observed, successful business often does not go hand-in-hand with quality martial arts instruction. I am sure there are exceptions to what I am saying, but often what i see in financially successful schools is low quality instruction. I’ve noticed this for years, and a couple years ago I had a chance to experience it first hand.

Coming out of Covid, we were looking to enroll our son in a school somewhere to get him engaged once again. He was nine years old at the time. Since he wasn’t interested in learning from me, we decided to look elsewhere, particularly for the social engagement that he would get from it, more so than he would get from working alone with me in the back yard, which he didn’t want to do anyways.

So I did some searching and review of what was local. I checked out two Tae Kwon do schools, both of which have been establishments in my community for many years, and a hybrid type of school that seems to mix elements of Kenpo with a taste of BJJ and mma and some other stuff, they are a well-established regional chain in my area and had recently opened a school in my neighborhood within the previous year or two.

Without exception, I was disappointed in what I saw. They charged a lot of money for very short classes (40 minutes) that were little more than babysitting session. The kids engaged in what I refer to as “martial arts inspired” movement activities which amounted to little more than striking some poses, and lining up to punch a standing bag once or twice before getting back in line, with minimal instruction to ensure good technique or some other learning of any kind. It was really disappointing to see.

I will confess, I did not watch an adult class, although I am not sure if they all had adult classes. Seems every time I drive by all I see at these places are kids.

At any rate, I still considered enrolling him in one of them simply for the social interactions and benefits. But I just couldn’t stomach it.

Finally, we found aikido being taught at the local community center through the Park and Rec department at a price where my son, myself, and my wife could all train for what it would have cost my son alone to train at one of the other locations. So we all signed up.

My wife and I have both held an interest in aikido so this was a chance for us to get some training, the sensei is nothing short of excellent, it is a quality program. It is definitely not a money-maker for him, he is not trying to make a living by it, and it would be hard to say it is a financially successful business even though he has been established for over 25 years in the community. It just isn’t bringing in that kind of income.

There are exceptions to everything. But overall from what I have seen, the successful business style of martial arts seems to typically offer a lower grade of instruction.

For what it’s worth.

 

[HighKick]

I disagree with this statement. From what I have observed, successful business often does not go hand-in-hand with quality martial arts instruction. I am sure there are exceptions to what I am saying, but often what i see in financially successful schools is low quality instruction. I’ve noticed this for years, and a couple years ago I had a chance to experience it first hand.

Coming out of Covid, we were looking to enroll our son in a school somewhere to get him engaged once again. He was nine years old at the time. Since he wasn’t interested in learning from me, we decided to look elsewhere, particularly for the social engagement that he would get from it, more so than he would get from working alone with me in the back yard, which he didn’t want to do anyways.

So I did some searching and review of what was local. I checked out two Tae Kwon do schools, both of which have been establishments in my community for many years, and a hybrid type of school that seems to mix elements of Kenpo with a taste of BJJ and mma and some other stuff, they are a well-established regional chain in my area and had recently opened a school in my neighborhood within the previous year or two.

Without exception, I was disappointed in what I saw. They charged a lot of money for very short classes (40 minutes) that were little more than babysitting session. The kids engaged in what I refer to as “martial arts inspired” movement activities which amounted to little more than striking some poses, and lining up to punch a standing bag once or twice before getting back in line, with minimal instruction to ensure good technique or some other learning of any kind. It was really disappointing to see.

I will confess, I did not watch an adult class, although I am not sure if they all had adult classes. Seems every time I drive by all I see at these places are kids.

At any rate, I still considered enrolling him in one of them simply for the social interactions and benefits. But I just couldn’t stomach it.

Finally, we found aikido being taught at the local community center through the Park and Rec department at a price where my son, myself, and my wife could all train for what it would have cost my son alone to train at one of the other locations. So we all signed up.

My wife and I have both held an interest in aikido so this was a chance for us to get some training, the sensei is nothing short of excellent, it is a quality program. It is definitely not a money-maker for him, he is not trying to make a living by it, and it would be hard to say it is a financially successful business even though he has been established for over 25 years in the community. It just isn’t bringing in that kind of income.

There are exceptions to everything. But overall from what I have seen, the successful business style of martial arts seems to typically offer a lower grade of instruction.

For what it’s worth.

Fully agree. I suppose I should have added an "excluding McDojo's" caveat.
What I was trying to get across is good martial arts schools in a for-profit environment.
Remember, Skribs has the idea of making a (good) living as a MA's instructor.
Looks like it is too late for me to edit the post.

 

[skribs]

If there two sides to a story, which is EVERY time, this could not be more logical. Just like the give and take you and I are having in your current debacle.

You're not arguing in good faith here.

When you claim someone's story has holes, it means there are things about the story that don't make sense or there are contradictions in the story. Claiming a story has holes because you only hear one side of it makes it impossible to argue with you.

It is a fair argument to say that you're only seeing one side of the story, and then you could conjecture as to what the other side is. It would be a fair thing to say that there are holes in my story if you can provide examples of contradictions.

You're using this as an excuse to just say that my story is a lie with no evidence or reason to think so. It's a bad faith argument.

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong. That does Not explicitly mean your way or viewpoint on all things.
'Good' can be subjective. A person can be near perfect ethically and morally, but still not have a personality that you gel with. Happens all the time. With some people, much more than others.

This is just incorrect. Others on this thread have backed me up on this.

I never questioned your willingness to pay. Heck, you have been trying to short-cut the system for a long time so I assumed you would pay if someone was unethical enough to take your money for a KKW rank.
By 'people', I assume you mean other school owners? Not returning calls or emails should have been taken as another sign to nut-up and get your butt in a school, put you head down, close your mouth and just train. Instead, you want to jump to the front of the line every time.

Shortcut the system? I got my 3rd degree in 2018. That was 7 years ago. I was eligible to test for 4th degree in 2021, before I left my previous school.

I did look for schools in my area. There was only one I found that was even worth looking at. One school rejected me because they were worried I might make them look bad. (The way they phrased it is they can't bring in high black belts from "outside the family"). One school was so worried about the image of TKD as being fake that they purposefully made their training dangerous. The third school simply did not work you very hard. They would have kids do a workout that consisted of one set of: 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. (In the advanced class). You weren't allowed to run, weren't allowed to kick hard, they barely sparred, when they did self-defense it was so choreographed that the moment you touch the other person they flop on the ground.

I wasn't going to get much out of this school, and he kept going back and forth on whether I could test for 3rd dan in 1 year or in 3 years. I did not want to waste 3 years doing virtually nothing just to get a certificate. I decided getting a physical workout and learning actual skills in BJJ was more worth it than attending this school. I did feel at my old TKD school (before I moved away) that I was getting those things: a good workout and good technique.

In a nutshell, you willingly went back to the 'biting hand you repeatedly fed' only after you tried a couple other avenues that you could not short-cut.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. I bit nobody's hand. My Master apologized to my Dad last year for how he treated our family, and I took that as an invitation to return and re-establish our relationship. I visited last year and discussed my issues with progressing to 4th degree. This is when we discussed reestablishing the Master/Student relationship and me coming back to test.

You mentioned in the previous reply that I was trying to strongarm him. I think you may have misread my post on the subject? I was not trying to strongarm him into letting me test. He was trying to strongarm me into opening a branch school under him by withholding rank unless I agree to send him a bunch of money when I open my school.

5th Dan in what? Is it the Dan number you perceive as having value or from where a certificate originates? Just got to 4imprint and they will make you any certificate you want.

I was specifically referring to how high a Master can promote without a student needing to go to a promotion board. In this case, I am trying to establish my understanding and interpretation of facts, and how that understanding and interpretation has changed as I've received more information.

My original belief (before I left) was that a Master could promote as long as they were a higher degree than what you were promoting to. My Master corroborated this when I visited last year, and he said that he could promote me up to 5th degree, and that he was preparing for his 7th degree promotion and after that he could promote me to 6th degree. He wasn't planning on immediately promoting me, the idea is that in 4-5 years I could test for 5th under him and in 5-6 years after that, I could test for 6th. As I said, we were trying to re-establish our relationship.

There is no value I am attributing to the 5th degree when I say this. (I'm also not saying it's invaluable or undesirable, I am simply not attributing a value to it right now). When I said this, I was merely stating the fact that my Master claimed he could eventually promote me to 5th and even 6th degree based on his current trajectory.

Financially: True. I do not know how deep your pockets are, but I do know you have made zero progress in actually starting your business. That is an indicator of lack of finances, financial fear, or both.

Now you're just being silly. You spend money when the budget calls for it, not before. If I'm going to be paying bills, paying upkeep costs, storage costs, interest, etc., I should probably have income coming in from the business first. If I'm not ready to buckle down and open, it would be foolish of me to put money down now.

It is incredibly bad advice to suggest someone financially ruin themselves just to prove that they have the finances. This is like instagram models who buy everything on credit and are in tremendous debt. Shame on you for this one.

In scientific and engineering experiments, observation will only get you so far. Empirical evidence must move to concrete evidence through real-world testing and trial and error (confirm or disconfirm). Test, fail, change, adjust, try again until the error resolves to an acceptable level.
You have yet to move to the concrete evidence phase.

I'm teaching right now. I'm learning from there. I don't just sit on Martial Talk all day. Do you lack object permanence? Do you think I only exist when I'm conversing with you and I do not do anything else when I sign off of my computer?

In fact, I have mentioned in this thread that I am coaching BJJ and cardio kickboxing at my BJJ gym, and I spent a lot of time coaching in TKD when I went to test. I am learning and continuing to learn through others to become a better teacher.

Very true that all advice is Not good advice. But you actively cheery pick the advice that fits your bias.

Yes, I don't blindly accept advice. I think about it and consider it.

Do you just blindly accept all advice that is given to you? If so, I suggest you spend all of your money on lottery tickets.

And if you don't, it's only because you're cherry picking advice that fits your bias, and you're now a hypocrite.

I assume the mentor/mentee comment is directed at me.

Yes and no. It was directed at you because you're trying to be a mentor to me when I have not asked for it. But it reminded me of multiple others who have done this.

You have contradicted yourself in at least 2-3 of your posts just in this thread alone. Again, I encourage you to go back, and really, really read what you posted.

Again, you're claiming contradictions, but have not provided a single example. You're just spewing nonsense at this point.

Where have I manipulated you or been deceitful to you? I have never even met you. I don't really know what gaslighting is, so there is that. If it means saying/doing things to get someone to react or see things in a different light then yes, I have gaslit the h**l out of you.

Manipulation: You twist words to fit your arguments. You try to put me on the back foot of the argument by making baseless and false accusations against me. You act like you're trying to help me, but you're giving me bad advice.

Deceitful: I pointed to several examples where you made baseless accusations or false accusations against me.

Gaslighting: Gaslighting is when you try to convince someone of an alternate reality, either as a form of abuse or for some sort of gain. For example, if a man cheats on his wife and she figures it out, he tries to convince her that she is paranoid and making things up. Or if the media wants to push a narrative, for example if they claim that 99% of Americans eat pineapple on their pizza and you're crazy if you don't, only to get kickbacks from Big Pineapple. (I tried to find something politically neutral as an analogy).

In this case, you're gaslighting me by trying to tell me that you know more about my own personal experiences than I do. You're telling me about my finances, my mental state, my physical state. You're trying to tell me that you know more about my former Master's motivations and ethics than I do. Someone that you don't even know who he is because I haven't named him, but I've known since 2013.

 

[Flying Crane]

Fully agree. I suppose I should have added an "excluding McDojo's" caveat.
What I was trying to get across is good martial arts schools in a for-profit environment.
Remember, Skribs has the idea of making a (good) living as a MA's instructor.
Looks like it is too late for me to edit the post.

Then of course the definition of a McDojo is something that is difficult to get agreement on. I am sure the schools that I visited believe in their program and would rigorously dispute the McDojo label.

 

[Buka]

@Monkey Turned Wolf @Buka I know exactly what USSD and that story was...but my friend doesn't. Can you explain to my friend what USSD was and what was bad about it?

Nah, I wouldn’t touch that with a ten foot Bernie Madoff poster.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Then of course the definition of a McDojo is something that is difficult to get agreement on.

McDojo has no one definition. I think it's more of a combination of ingredients that give a school a McDojo flavor. Some common elements that can usually be found at such schools include, IMO:

Headed by low-ranking black belt
Little sincere concern for the students as individuals
Little understanding of the art's deeper principles
Emphasis on empty ritual to impress students
Low expectations of quality from students
Automatic promotions
Abundance of patches such as "INSTRUCTOR"
Unverifiable lineage or rank of instructor
Little respect for other schools

This is just a short list off the top of my head. Just of couple of them don't define a McDojo, but if half of these are present, it may be one. Some of you may have additional ones to add. Here's a couple more:

If your gi is fancier than your wife's new dress, you may belong to a McDojo.
If there are more belt colors than moves in a kata, you may belong to a McDojo.
If...........?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Great history lesson.
What needs to be emphasized loudly based on the give and take in this thread is that most of these instructors were already at or near Master rank in their own right. They already had years/decades in training. They did not take a 1-day "become a Master" course then move to America.

That may depend on your definition of "Master" Nam Tae Hi was the "Hands on" instructor for the 29th infantry division which was not even formed until 1954-55 and he was a 2nd Dan and one of the most Senior of the CDK. General Choi attended the weapons familiarization course in Texas in 1965 when he recruited Jhoon Rhee and other Korean instructors to to adopt his system and of course use the name Tk-D. Following "Normal" Chang Hon Time lines - even 10 years later they would not have been 7th Dan. Normal time lines would have put that much later, although the pioneers were promoted more quickly.

 

[HighKick]

Same thing with me expecting to get a KKW certificate. He remembers me telling him I didn't need it. He doesn't remember telling me I should get it anyway. His paperwork didn't say I would get a Kukkiwon certificate, and he has an email of me saying that the paperwork "looks good". That's because when I wrote the email, I was thinking I was going to get it. He pulled the, "If you weren't sure, you should've asked", which is a horrible cop out when there's a miscommunication.

One of many holes in the stories.
Everything I have read in these missives said you did not or could not have an adult conversation with this person, and I am speaking to your inability, not theirs. By your own admission, he has an email where you state 'all is good', yet you still expected something different. He is exactly right that you should have asked. Communication 101. I am sure you know the saying about what happens when you 'assume'. You lived it large in this fiasco.

Same thing with me expecting to get a KKW certificate. He remembers me telling him I didn't need it. He doesn't remember telling me I should get it anyway. His paperwork didn't say I would get a Kukkiwon certificate, and he has an email of me saying that the paperwork "looks good". That's because when I wrote the email, I was thinking I was going to get it. He pulled the, "If you weren't sure, you should've asked", which is a horrible cop out when there's a miscommunication. As I said earlier, there were a bunch of reasons for me to think I was getting a Kukkiwon certificate: I'm doing the Taegeuk forms (which are not a part of his curriculum), he is a Kukkiwon school, our previous conversation where he said he would give me both, the similarity of the paperwork and the requirement for my KKW Dan certificate, "Kukkiwon" being in the Korean word list. But he is technically correct that I agreed to the paperwork and the paperwork doesn't specify Kukkiwon certificate anywhere. So it's my fault.

More holes mostly driven by poor communication. You Thought one thing, but didn't understand at all what was going on, even though all the information was right in front of you. That is on you which you admit.
But in later posts, you infer you Are going to get your KKW certificate. Makes no sense.

He does have a record of poor communication with his staff. Apparently this all runs deep. (And every miscommunication is of course: my fault).

What I remember before I left in 2022 is that he told me if I want to use his proprietary curriculum, that I need to franchise under him. I told him I would use my own curriculum. That's when he stopped having time for me. He kept asking when I was leaving, I kept telling him after I'd get my 4th Dan, but eventually realized it wasn't going to happen. He had been cutting my teaching hours, cancelling private lessons, stopped teaching me my material during black belt classes, and prepared for life without me. That's why I left.

What he remembers is that he told me that if I want to get 4th degree under him, that I need to franchise under him. That I didn't agree to that, and that's why he didn't test me for 4th degree.

I'm actually going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one and say he may simply not be remembering correctly exactly what was said. This was 3 or 4 years ago that this conversation happened at this point, and like I said in my previous post: he doesn't always have a perfect memory.

However, this means that when I told him I want to get a 4th degree under him, based on his remembering that I declined to test for 4th degree previously due to the requirement to franchise under him, that I was telling him I wanted to franchise under him as a branch.

Same thing with me expecting to get a KKW certificate. He remembers me telling him I didn't need it. He doesn't remember telling me I should get it anyway. His paperwork didn't say I would get a Kukkiwon certificate, and he has an email of me saying that the paperwork "looks good". That's because when I wrote the email, I was thinking I was going to get it. He pulled the, "If you weren't sure, you should've asked", which is a horrible cop out when there's a miscommunication. As I said earlier, there were a bunch of reasons for me to think I was getting a Kukkiwon certificate: I'm doing the Taegeuk forms (which are not a part of his curriculum), he is a Kukkiwon school, our previous conversation where he said he would give me both, the similarity of the paperwork and the requirement for my KKW Dan certificate, "Kukkiwon" being in the Korean word list. But he is technically correct that I agreed to the paperwork and the paperwork doesn't specify Kukkiwon certificate anywhere. So it's my fault.

(And if I push back too much I do think I won't get anything at all from him).

He even said if he gave me both, he couldn't give me his certificate and KKW certificate at the same time, which is utter bullcrap because I've gotten the other degrees at the same time. Unlike his memory of the conversation, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Oh boy, just more holes driven by poor communication, apparently on both sides. But since you already knew he has a track record of poor communication, all the more reason to make things concrete, which you never did. Holes.

You're not arguing in good faith here.

Form Copilot AI:

Good faith is a term that refers to honesty and fairness in dealings between people or parties. It signifies acting with sincere intention to be fair, open, and honest, regardless of the outcome of the interaction. When someone acts in good faith, they are expected to be truthful and sincere in their actions and intentions, without taking advantage of others.

I know you do not like what I say or how I say it sometimes, but the above definition could not be more accurate in my attempts to communicate during this thread.

This is just incorrect. Others on this thread have backed me up on this.

Care to elaborate here.

Shortcut the system? I got my 3rd degree in 2018. That was 7 years ago. I was eligible to test for 4th degree in 2021, before I left my previous school.

Yes, you have the TIG, no arguments there.

Shortcut the system? I got my 3rd degree in 2018. That was 7 years ago. I was eligible to test for 4th degree in 2021, before I left my previous school.

I did look for schools in my area. There was only one I found that was even worth looking at. One school rejected me because they were worried I might make them look bad. (The way they phrased it is they can't bring in high black belts from "outside the family"). One school was so worried about the image of TKD as being fake that they purposefully made their training dangerous. The third school simply did not work you very hard. They would have kids do a workout that consisted of one set of: 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. (In the advanced class). You weren't allowed to run, weren't allowed to kick hard, they barely sparred, when they did self-defense it was so choreographed that the moment you touch the other person they flop on the ground.

I wasn't going to get much out of this school, and he kept going back and forth on whether I could test for 3rd dan in 1 year or in 3 years. I did not want to waste 3 years doing virtually nothing just to get a certificate. I decided getting a physical workout and learning actual skills in BJJ was more worth it than attending this school. I did feel at my old TKD school (before I moved away) that I was getting those things: a good workout and good technique.

But it appears you showed up to the other schools and expected to test right away. And when this was not going to happen, it frustrated you. So, you politely bad-mouthed them and left, citing various reasons.
It does not and should not work that way unless there is a pre-arrangement with your previous school. Simply professional courtesy.
Using one of your previous comparisons, would you expect to move from one college to another without proof of transcripts?
Especially in the MA's, empirical evidence/proof is required. This takes time.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. I bit nobody's hand. My Master apologized to my Dad last year for how he treated our family, and I took that as an invitation to return and re-establish our relationship. I visited last year and discussed my issues with progressing to 4th degree. This is when we discussed reestablishing the Master/Student relationship and me coming back to test.

You mentioned in the previous reply that I was trying to strongarm him. I think you may have misread my post on the subject? I was not trying to strongarm him into letting me test. He was trying to strongarm me into opening a branch school under him by withholding rank unless I agree to send him a bunch of money when I open my school.

It means you kept going back to the original instructor that you repeatedly claim to have had trouble with After you have exhausted all other options. "don't feed the hand that bit you"
How does an apology about a conversation that appears to have little to do with the topic somehow morph into you assuming it is an invitation to re-establish a relationship? Sounds like an extremely desperate reach.
It does sound like you took the next logical step but then confirmed nothing, even with all the Bad communication history.
Holes.

Now you're just being silly. You spend money when the budget calls for it, not before. If I'm going to be paying bills, paying upkeep costs, storage costs, interest, etc., I should probably have income coming in from the business first. If I'm not ready to buckle down and open, it would be foolish of me to put money down now.

It is incredibly bad advice to suggest someone financially ruin themselves just to prove that they have the finances. This is like instagram models who buy everything on credit and are in tremendous debt. Shame on you for this one.

Who's being silly?
The vast majority of businesses start off in the red. This is known going in and takes financial planning to ride out the startup costs. My first school (on its own) hovered between breaking even or in the red for the first two years.

We are not talking about a venture capital startup here. You are not seeding money beforehand.
Never have I suggest financial ruin for someone. Period. I am passionate about seeing people succeed financially in business start-ups. Suggesting otherwise is offensive to me.

This screams you really do not understand the business-side of the equation. Far and away, this is quite often where I jump into conversations with people. Purely trying to help. If you look at my history on the form, it will be a common theme.

I'm teaching right now. I'm learning from there. I don't just sit on Martial Talk all day. Do you lack object permanence? Do you think I only exist when I'm conversing with you and I do not do anything else when I sign off of my computer?

In fact, I have mentioned in this thread that I am coaching BJJ and cardio kickboxing at my BJJ gym, and I spent a lot of time coaching in TKD when I went to test. I am learning and continuing to learn through others to become a better teacher.

I am an EE who designs systems from scratch for companies all over the world. I live in object permanence.
The rest of this is sadly silly rebuff.
I am very glad that you have kept training through most of this. I do worry that your 'shotgun approach' is a hinderance.

Yes, I don't blindly accept advice. I think about it and consider it.

Do you just blindly accept all advice that is given to you? If so, I suggest you spend all of your money on lottery tickets.

And if you don't, it's only because you're cherry picking advice that fits your bias, and you're now a hypocrite.

Reflection is a good tool, but I don't see that in you very often. Usually, it is a knee-jerk response because it does not fit your current agenda or beliefs.
If you are not willing to question and prescribe to things outside your current belief's you will never learn and grow. Do Not confuse this with ethics and morals.

Yes and no. It was directed at you because you're trying to be a mentor to me when I have not asked for it. But it reminded me of multiple others who have done this.

No, I am not your mentor. I don't think I ever would be.

Again, you're claiming contradictions, but have not provided a single example. You're just spewing nonsense at this point.

Please see above.

In this case, you're gaslighting me by trying to tell me that you know more about my own personal experiences than I do. You're telling me about my finances, my mental state, my physical state. You're trying to tell me that you know more about my former Master's motivations and ethics than I do. Someone that you don't even know who he is because I haven't named him, but I've known since 2013.

No one is impossible to research. I will just leave it right there.
As I said, I do Not know your financial, mental, or physical state. Put I can conclude a whole lot from your writings.

 

[skribs]

One of many holes in the stories.
Everything I have read in these missives said you did not or could not have an adult conversation with this person, and I am speaking to your inability, not theirs. By your own admission, he has an email where you state 'all is good', yet you still expected something different. He is exactly right that you should have asked. Communication 101. I am sure you know the saying about what happens when you 'assume'. You lived it large in this fiasco.

Another bad faith argument. And now you're purposefully blaming the victim. You just make your position look worse and worse with every single argument you post. I would quit digging while you're still able to see the ground level.

Assuming I should have knowledge that I do not, and then blaming me after the fact for not knowing what I didn't know is a lazy excuse for poor communication. In this case, there were many reasons I had to believe that what I was filling out was "good", and no reason to suspect that he was giving me something other than I thought.

Based on the information I had when I sent the email saying, "All is good", I had enough evidence to reasonably believe that I was getting a Kukkiwon certificate.

1. He had told me it would be a good idea to get a Kukkiwon certificate.
2. He told me based on his rank in Kukkiwon how high he could promote me.
3. We studied the Taegeuk forms, which he only includes because it is a Kukkiwon requirement.
4. The first Korean word in the terminology list for my test was "Kukkiwon".
5. He had me fill out a form that looked exactly like the Kukkiwon paperwork that I had filled out for 1st through 3rd Dan, except it said "World Martial Arts" instead of "Kukkiwon", which I just assumed was an English translation of Kukkiwon because the terminology list has Kukkiwon as "World Taekwondo Headquarters." Additionally, the paperwork required me to provide my Dan certificate number, which was the previous Dan certificate issued by the organization, and my previous Dan had come from Kukkiwon.
6. During our lessons, he was very concerned with making sure that everything was official and that other folks would trust the testing was legitimate despite me currently residing in another state, to the point where he was making sure we were recording, especially when we were studying the Taegeuks. (In fairness to you, this was something I had not mentioned on this thread, so it would be unfair for me to criticize your understanding of the situation based on this point. I am simply providing additional evidence to back my claim that this was deceitful and manipulative on his part. I am not going to blame you for not having asked if we recorded videos of us studying the Taegeuks together).
7. He told me he wanted me to go with him to the Kukkiwon Master Certification Course when we had lunch (at the time where he told me #1 and #2). This also wasn't something I've mentioned before, so I don't blame you for not knowing, but I am providing it as additional evidence for this claim.
8. (This item isn't part of the discussions we had before I sent the email, but this discussion did occur before I found out I wasn't getting my certificate, which is part of why I was hit even harder when I figured it out). When I initially got to his school in preparation for the final stretch towards the exam, he announced that I would be opening a branch office under him. This would mean that I would be a Kukkiwon school under him, because he is a Kukkiwon school and he is expecting me to teach the Kukkiwon curriculum on top of his own. Why would he open a non-Kukkiwon branch?
9. In the same conversation as #8 (again, not part of the initial discussions, just clarifying so you don't call it another contradiction, even though you probably will anyway), he said that I would need to go to Kukkiwon if I wanted the Kukkiwon Master License. He did not say anything about going to Kukkiwon directly to get my 4th degree.

After the fact, I feel he was being purposefully deceitful, because:

1. He lied about ever saying #1, #2, or #7 above. He told me regarding #1 that he had actually meant I should get a USNTF certificate, not a Kukkiwon certificate. He said he could not promote me through Kukkiwon at the same time as he could promote me through his school, which is a lie because every other promotion I've had through his school has been at the same time as he sent my promotion to Kukkiwon. And he told me that I would have to go to the my local branch instead of going with him to his local branch to get my Kukkiwon Master license. After I realized that I was not even getting the Kukkiwon 4th degree certificate, he denied and twisted everything he had said.
2. Any miscommunications during this, he took what I said as exact. I said in the email that everything looks good, so that's fact. He took everything he said as that I should have known what he meant. Because if he said I should have gotten a KKW certificate, what he meant was a USNTF certificate. He had a double standard for himself and for me in this conversation. This is why I blame him for these miscommunications. Because he does things like this all the time. He is the Master, and therefore his interpretation of whatever happened is what happened, and you just need to say "yes sir" or "no sir" even if it's not what happened. There is no discussing or negotiating anything with him. He even does stuff like this in class, where he will change his mind on how a technique should be performed, and then criticize you for doing it "wrong", even though you did it the way he told you to last time. (And this is 100% on him, because many of the other black belts have noticed the same thing, and with my material he even told me himself that he hadn't practiced it in a while and so he didn't remember it perfect...but expected us, his students, to remember it perfect the way he expected it that day).
3. He made the paperwork include enough Kukkiwon items that it was at least reasonable for me to assume that this was Kukkiwon paperwork and a Kukkiwon examination. This may be because he is too lazy to create his own paperwork and edit the paperwork he gives students that are expecting Kukkiwon rank. So this may not be a purposeful deceit, but it definitely came across that way. What he should have done is create a new paperwork that does not resemble Kukkiwon, not ask for my Dan certificate number from Kukkiwon, remove the word "Kukkiwon" from the word list, and possibly remove the Taegeuks from the curriculum I was required to test.
4. He never said outright that I wasn't getting the Kukkiwon certificate. I wouldn't hold this against him if it weren't for the other evidence, and the fact that I was held to the standard that I needed to be clear up front, but he did not hold himself to the same standard.

I believe many of the tactics he used while I was there in his office were to try and assert power and control over me, because he was trying to strong-arm me into opening a branch under him, despite neither me nor him ever claiming before that I was going to open a branch under him. He assumed (again, based on memories he has different from mine, and at this point I assume it's part of his deceit and manipulation the way he described our previous falling out) that because I asked for him to promote me, that I would open a branch under him. Neither of us ever said that. The first time this was said was when I arrived and he announced in public to the students that I would be opening the new branch in my new location.

When I talked to him about it after class, he started going into money. What would be the financial arrangement between our schools? He would be in control of the certificates and belts (despite me being a Master who could just do that myself), and I would pay him half of the testing fees. I was really confused as to why he would get so much power and control over my school.

Our next conversation, I was trying to figure out if I was a branch of his school, or if he were starting his own association that I would be under, but he said that he realized I wasn't going to be a branch under him if I had my own curriculum, so forget the whole thing. That's when I made post #6 in the thread, saying he dropped it, and everything seemed fine again.

Then, he decides to go full litigation mode. (This wasn't in the thread, so it's not a hole in your argument that you didn't know this, I point this out again to try and help you understand the difference between a hole in an argument and new understandings based on new information). He has me sign an NDA. Because he's very worried about his curriculum being stolen. Which is weird, because A) he knows I don't want to use his curriculum anyway, B) the curriculum is less important than the teacher for a school's success, and C) I'm the only person who has been capable of learning his curriculum other than him, and so how does he expect anyone else to run a school with his curriculum? He has me sign a very official-looking NDA, which includes in it that he will not give me a Kukkiwon certificate unless I open a branch under him. The quid pro quo is in writing there.

Even if all of this is my fault for not knowing before I got there, the quid pro quo itself is an unethical business practice. It's definitely not what two friends would do. It's definitely not what someone who is "sorry for the way I treated your family" should react. And if he is behaving unethically towards me, it leads me to believe I am correct in my assertation of all of the above.

Then, when I went into his office the next day to try and say, "I'm fine with just getting the 4th degree under you" (to salvage what I could from the trip), he ignores me, and spends 20 minutes explaining to me why he is right, why I should have known based on his assumptions and interpretations of our conversations that he wasn't going to give me a Kukkiwon certificate, and threatens to cancel my test, because "why should I promote you if you're not going to open a branch under me?".

There were other unrelated deceptions in that trip, such as him telling me that I'm lucky he doesn't charge me money to volunteer for him. This is his go-to manipulation tactic to try and get people to accept some of his less scrupulous business practices, although in the past it hasn't been as big of a deal because it hasn't had a real impact on people and their future. For example, he would say the same thing when folks volunteer as an assistant instructor, but it's very different when someone is doing 25 volunteer hours to get a black belt than when someone is trying to get their Master license so they can open a school and make that their primary source of income.

He himself is incapable of having adult conservations with the adult students in the school unless they are older than him. He does respect his elders, but he expects that people younger and lower rank than him defer to him in every conversation. You're just supposed to say, "Yes, sir" or "No, sir". He has stated he doesn't want people coming up with their own ideas because he only wants his ideas taught at his school. He gets mad when students come to me for advice instead of him, and has held that against me. Back when I was his main instructor, it had got to the point where any student asked me a question, I would just tell them to ask him, because I didn't want to get in trouble for his ego.

Again, these past 2 paragraphs are not mentioned in this thread, so it's understandable that you didn't know. However, you should at least have taken with a grain of salt that I'm describing 2 weeks of interactions for something that's been in discussion for several months with someone that I have known for 12 years, and maybe I have a better understanding of the situation and his character than you do.

 

[skribs]

More holes mostly driven by poor communication. You Thought one thing, but didn't understand at all what was going on, even though all the information was right in front of you. That is on you which you admit.
But in later posts, you infer you Are going to get your KKW certificate. Makes no sense.

So you're now conflating holes in my story (which was the original discussion) with holes in our communication. You're changing the meaning of what you were talking about. Bad faith argument.

Oh boy, just more holes driven by poor communication, apparently on both sides. But since you already knew he has a track record of poor communication, all the more reason to make things concrete, which you never did. Holes.

Same as the above. It's not a hole in my story. It's a communication problem. If you want to call it a communication problem between us I'll agree. But to say it's a hole in my story because we were not on the same page is just a bad argument.

Good faith is a term that refers to honesty and fairness in dealings between people or parties. It signifies acting with sincere intention to be fair, open, and honest, regardless of the outcome of the interaction. When someone acts in good faith, they are expected to be truthful and sincere in their actions and intentions, without taking advantage of others.

I know you do not like what I say or how I say it sometimes, but the above definition could not be more accurate in my attempts to communicate during this thread.

Then stop making baseless and false accusations.

Care to elaborate here.

Yeah. Look at posts 75, 78, 80, 83, and 90 (and maybe a few more in the middle from folks on my ignore list). There's evidence that you're purposefully ignoring. And I know you're actively ignoring them because two of them are moderators that you cannot put on your ignore list. 100% this is a bad faith argument you're making. The facts are right in front of you and you're pretending they don't exist. This is gaslighting 101.

Yes, you have the TIG, no arguments there.

You made the argument earlier that I'm looking for shortcuts. Now you're not arguing that you agree I'm not taking shortcuts. This is a contradiction. Not the examples you've provided before of miscommunications and lies. But this is a textbook example of a contradiction. You said one thing, I argued against it, and you deny having ever made the argument in the first place.

I'm not responding to the rest of your post. And I'm going to do my best to stop responding to you. There's no point when you're just going to deny whatever argument you made in the first place when I make a valid counter-argument, or just gaslight me into claiming that nobody has backed me up when several people have and there's no reasonable way for you to believe they haven't.

So yes, again, you are like my Master, in that you are difficult to have an adult conservation with. Unlike you're claim, it is 100% on your end.

As a going-away gift, I will admit to one contradiction in my post. I did say that I would stop talking to you, and then I replied again. You did have one example of a contradiction gifted to you and you missed it. I will try not to make the same mistake twice.

 

[skribs]

I started back at my BJJ school yesterday. I had been out of town for 3 weeks for testing. When I got back, my Professor's first thing was to tell me how proud he is that I have continued with my original art instead of just switching to BJJ, that he respects my passion.

I told him what happened with my school, that I got promoted but not through the organization. The main reason I told him is that we have discussed potentially opening a branch closer to me, which would teach BJJ and TKD, and I wanted him to know up front that I had the degree, but not with any major organization. I explained it to him that it would be as if one of our brown belts were moving, and he told them that he would give them a black belt, but only register it with IBJJF if they opened a branch under him.

He asked, "Is it his ego?"

I said, "That and the money."

Then we started class. I was there to teach the tots class. The first thing he did in class is reintroduce me. "Some of you started in the last few weeks and may not know him, but he just got back from getting his 4th degree black belt in Taekwondo," and had them give me a round of applause.

I am continually surprised by how much more respect guys at my BJJ gym have for my TKD experience than the TKD Masters I've trained under have had for me. Our Muay Thai coach wants me to teach a class on Taekwondo footwork because some of the guys in our league have a TKD background and their style has been a bit puzzling to our fighters. My BJJ professor trusts me as a teacher, despite my inexperience with BJJ, because he knows I've been trained to teach kids martial arts.

Then I go into a TKD school where I'm micromanaged, go to a HKD school (which I also have a black belt in) and told I need to restart at white belt because "I've never promoted you so you're a white belt in my school".

I'm just flummoxed at the different responses I get. I would have expected it to be the other way around. That the BJJ guys would give me a hard time for doing another martial art, that the Muay Thai guys would get upset when I do spin kicks, but that the TKD and HKD schools would be happy to have someone come in and bring something to the table with how much experience I have.

Made a few edits for some grammar errors that confused my post.

 

[HighKick]

So you're now conflating holes in my story (which was the original discussion) with holes in our communication. You're changing the meaning of what you were talking about. Bad faith argument.

Same as the above. It's not a hole in my story. It's a communication problem. If you want to call it a communication problem between us I'll agree. But to say it's a hole in my story because we were not on the same page is just a bad argument.

Then stop making baseless and false accusations.

Yeah. Look at posts 75, 78, 80, 83, and 90 (and maybe a few more in the middle from folks on my ignore list). There's evidence that you're purposefully ignoring. And I know you're actively ignoring them because two of them are moderators that you cannot put on your ignore list. 100% this is a bad faith argument you're making. The facts are right in front of you and you're pretending they don't exist. This is gaslighting 101.

You made the argument earlier that I'm looking for shortcuts. Now you're not arguing that you agree I'm not taking shortcuts. This is a contradiction. Not the examples you've provided before of miscommunications and lies. But this is a textbook example of a contradiction. You said one thing, I argued against it, and you deny having ever made the argument in the first place.

I'm not responding to the rest of your post. And I'm going to do my best to stop responding to you. There's no point when you're just going to deny whatever argument you made in the first place when I make a valid counter-argument, or just gaslight me into claiming that nobody has backed me up when several people have and there's no reasonable way for you to believe they haven't.

So yes, again, you are like my Master, in that you are difficult to have an adult conservation with. Unlike you're claim, it is 100% on your end.

As a going-away gift, I will admit to one contradiction in my post. I did say that I would stop talking to you, and then I replied again. You did have one example of a contradiction gifted to you and you missed it. I will try not to make the same mistake twice.

Well, I will agree this conversation has become hopeless. You either cannot or will not see or hear things any other way than Your own version. I Never said you were Not looking for short-cuts.

However, I was warned about my 'short-cut' comment, so for that I do apologize.

I am out.