Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

@Monkey Turned Wolf @Buka I know exactly what USSD and that story was...but my friend doesn't. Can you explain to my friend what USSD was and what was bad about it?

 

[HighKick]

I disagree, that is not always the case. Fred Villari’s United Studios of self defense is a perfect example.

I don’t doubt Skribs’ description of events at all. I can only speak from an east coaster’s experience but I was there in the early seventies when the TKD foray (which seemed like an invasion) first started, they were opening up everywhere.

And most of them displayed EXACTLY the behavior that Skribs describes about his TKD Master. And man, do they all LOVE that term Master.

I’ve always addressed Martial Arts instructor’s as Master if they included it in their title. Except for TKD, I addressed them as Sir and did so with respect.

What Skribs has described I saw first hand over and over and over again. All through the seventies and eighties on the east coast.

And please know I am not bashing the , I was a TKD man myself. What I’m talking about is a repeated and organized behavior on the part of a cartel of instructors to control
and manipulate clients on the east coast at one time - that I think still goes on today.

In part we are full agreement. There are controlling and over-bearing instructors in TKD and All other styles. And let's be honest, they are in every other avenue of life, job, home, other pastimes, etc...
A Lot of the Korean instructors who came over in the '70's wave of TKD would fit in your category simply because it is/was the 'Korean' way. I am not judging that as good or bad, it is just the way they were.

But the Skribs story goes much deeper, and I would never have written what I did if I did not believe there is enough written evidence to support it (on this particular individual basis).

To reiterate, I am not trying to bash him. We all need a kick in the teeth sometimes, but some seem to need it over and over until they finally get it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It was an "organized" invasion as a whole, military-like in execution with support from the government of S. Korea. TKD (headed by an army general) masters sent over here likely had fought in the brutal Korean War and were tough men who were given a new mission - establish a strong TKD presence in America. .

Though one could argue with the exact character of what is said it is an apt description and why General Choi is considered the "Founder ' of Tk-D" He created and developed the system by recruiting existing top MA talent "Korean Supermen" into the 29th infantry division. Used them as a resource to develop the new system, then with their athletic prowess and government resources could use military transports to travel for demos to other countries in order too impress people who would seek to learn the art. He also travel to the US for Military Officer training and convinced some like Jhoon Rhee to adopt the new system. Many of the instructors developed in the Military were encouraged to emigrate to other countries and and teach. Some 19 years later their was a radical change in the SK government rendering General Choi persona non grata yet it created a new "Tkd" - Develop system - Allowed Various systems to come under it's Tkd umbrella - create instructors - dispatch to other countries - format.

 

[HighKick]

So because I only tell one side of the story, my story has holes? That's not even a logical argument.

If there two sides to a story, which is EVERY time, this could not be more logical. Just like the give and take you and I are having in your current debacle.

Financial success isn't necessarily related to morals and ethics. Some people are very good in public and very bad in private. For example, the CEO at my previous job was very polite and collected in board meetings, but was known for screaming and cussing in meetings with employees.

To think that successful people can't be jerks, or that people can't be two-faced shows an incredible amount of naivety on your part.

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong. That does Not explicitly mean your way or viewpoint on all things.
'Good' can be subjective. A person can be near perfect ethically and morally, but still not have a personality that you gel with. Happens all the time. With some people, much more than others.

My plan was to prepare for the test, learn all the material, and then test under my former Master. Barring that, my plan was to find someone else who will test me. I was planning on paying for the fees, learning the requirements, meeting any expectations, and then testing.

The problem was people wouldn't return my calls or emails, and I didn't feel comfortable training at the other schools in my area for one reason or another.

I never said I was going to force someone to test me.

I never questioned your willingness to pay. Heck, you have been trying to short-cut the system for a long time so I assumed you would pay if someone was unethical enough to take your money for a KKW rank.
By 'people', I assume you mean other school owners? Not returning calls or emails should have been taken as another sign to nut-up and get your butt in a school, put you head down, close your mouth and just train. Instead, you want to jump to the front of the line every time.

On top of that, I've said he strung me along before I left, and was very deceptive about it upon my return.

Since I was not there, of course I cannot have an accurate opinion, but I will defer to my 'two-sides' analogy.
In a nutshell, you willingly went back to the 'biting hand you repeatedly fed' only after you tried a couple other avenues that you could not short-cut.

Not true at all. If you have the proper rank and the Master's license, you can promote up to 3rd Dan. I believe 4th and up may require promotion through a regional KKW board, but this is information I discovered after the incidents in this thread.

For what it's worth, my former Master told me that as a 6th Dan, soon to be 7th, he can promote me to 5th Dan, soon to be a ceiling of 6th.

I stand corrected and see that I made a typo that I cannot go back and correct. Up to 4th Dan with a Masters license is the norm.

5th Dan in what? Is it the Dan number you perceive as having value or from where a certificate originates? Just got to 4imprint and they will make you any certificate you want.

I have lambasted self-promotions. I have questioned the value of a KKW promotion based on KKW schools I have been to. However, I had recently decided it was a good idea to have the KKW certificate (based on my former Master's advice), and was actually leaning towards opening a KKW-affiliated school.

I didn't change my rank from 3rd Dan to 4th Dan. My former Master did. I tested for 4th degree under his school, and he promoted to 4th degree under his school, but he refused to promote me through Kukkiwon like he had done for 1st through 3rd degree. I claim the 4th degree rank because a 6th degree black belt promoted me from 3rd to 4th.

I have changed tracks from seeking KKW rank because my path to KKW rank has hit a dead end. I have changed plans to opening my own unaffiliated school, because I am not qualified to open a KKW school, but I am qualified to open an unaffiliated school.

KKW rank has strong value within Kukkiwon schools and the World Taekwondo (formerly World Taekwondo Federation) community. It has some value outside of that, in that a school affiliated with a different federation or no federation may recognize the Kukkiwon rank, but it has less value in an ITF school, ATA school, or an unaffiliated school than it does in a KKW school.

I got a bit of whiplash from that one.

Financially: Baseless accusation. You know nothing of my finances or my financial plan.
Mentally: False accusation. In fact, most people on this forum accuse me of overthinking everything.
Physically: Baseless and false accusation. You know nothing of my physical training because I don't post it on here. For the last 5 months, my training regiment has been every week:

• Daily practice of TKD curriculum for testing
• 5 classes cardio kickboxing and 10 classes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to build stamina
• Weekly lifting sessions with days for chest, back, and legs/core

I've changed my diet significantly. Cut probably 2000-3000 calories per day and increased the amount of healthy foods I have been eating. I have lost 25 pounds during these 5 months, and put on more muscle to boot. I have been physically training 3-4 hours per day.

I am continuing to grow as a coach through teaching jiu-jitsu and cardio kickboxing.

When I travelled for my test, I arrived two weeks early to learn as much as I could getting ready for testing. I volunteered my time to help out with his classes. He didn't have to accept my help, but he did. (And he made a big deal about how lucky I am that I get to help him for free, instead of him charging me money for teaching experience).

Financially: True. I do not know how deep your pockets are, but I do know you have made zero progress in actually starting your business. That is an indicator of lack of finances, financial fear, or both.
Mentally: On your comment we agree. There is a very common phrase that is quite apt. Paralysis by (over) analysis. It is looming large.
In scientific and engineering experiments, observation will only get you so far. Empirical evidence must move to concrete evidence through real-world testing and trial and error (confirm or disconfirm). Test, fail, change, adjust, try again until the error resolves to an acceptable level.
You have yet to move to the concrete evidence phase.
Physically: True. I do not know your training regimen or how knowledgeable and polished you are in any curriculum. I also don't know if this is/was simply a 'cram session' for the recent trip to your old instructor or normal, long time routine. It looks good on paper.

Pardon me for seeking the proper qualifications before I open a business. Would you recommend people drop out of law school and open their own law firm before passing the bar exam? Would you recommend people drop out of medical school and just start treating people out of a van?

Just because people give me advice doesn't mean it's good advice, or at least not the right advice for me. And in some cases, I may not have seen the advice, because I have put them on ignore - either because of the way they give advice or some unrelated reason. For example, one person once made the comment that a certain race of people shouldn't be taught martial arts because of historical actions taken by people of that race. Another person would bait me into explaining something, then would accuse me of mansplaining because I answered a question. These are not people I want to take advice from.

Other people have taken it upon themselves to claim a mentor/mentee relationship where none exists. They hide behind their rank and experience and claim superiority over me, and then refuse to listen to my side of any debate or argument. I learned in college that professors with this attitude tend not to be worth listening to, and I have applied that here as well.

As to you, you have not provided any specific examples from this thread of holes in my story. Your only evidence that there's holes in my story is that you're only hearing my side. However, you have levelled 4 baseless accusations and 3 false accusations against me.

You did say that I might dislike you for a lot of the reasons why I dislike my former my Master. You're right. He treated me with manipulation, deceit, and gaslighting. I disliked that about him, and I dislike that about you, too. I'm tired of arguing with your hallucinations, so I'm just going to stop.

C'mon man. You are Not comparing apples to apples.

Very true that all advice is Not good advice. But you actively cheery pick the advice that fits your bias.

I assume the mentor/mentee comment is directed at me.
To be VERY clear, I suppose NO superiority over anyone in ANY subject or context. Not my job and does NOT fit into my faith.
But my personality is rather direct. Before I had became a LEO, we all had to get a psych profile. Mine came back as 'brutally honest'. I had never thought about it before, but that is nail on the head for me.
I am 8th Dan, 5th Dan, 1st Dan & 2nd Instructor. None of which I ever mentioned before in the thread.
Rank? Big deal. But I did this, some concurrently, over the course of about 40 years. I never tried to short-cut or end-around the process. You have.

You have contradicted yourself in at least 2-3 of your posts just in this thread alone. Again, I encourage you to go back, and really, really read what you posted.

Where have I manipulated you or been deceitful to you? I have never even met you. I don't really know what gaslighting is, so there is that. If it means saying/doing things to get someone to react or see things in a different light then yes, I have gaslit the h**l out of you.
Something to think on. My favorite and surprisingly accurate and effective saying when gathering for an engineering meeting (or any type of meeting really) is to "get All the liars in the same room". We are all guilty of it, sometimes when we don't even know it or sincerely believe the lie. Good or bad, evidence is evidence.

Don't know if you will take the time to read any of this or not. But as I have said in this thread on a number of occasions, I am purely trying to help and nothing else. Your viewpoint is Very narrow and, on some things needs to change.
I am not affected one iota whether you succeed or fail but I do know the failure rate of MA's schools is Very, Very high. And it is as much or more about the business aspect than the product/service. Yes, that is a tough one for most instructor/school owners to swallow, but it is true for any product/service. Some of the best MA's I know could not teach their way out of a paper bag. Some business-people I know could train for a month and do an admirable job of teaching a beginner. But neither of these may be business savvy enough to run a business of any type.
I honestly cannot tell where you fall in this equation but have my suspicions.

It is up to you whether you read this or not. Again, will not move my meter either way.
And again, not trying to be a hard ankle, simply trying to help.

 

[HighKick]

Though one could argue with the exact character of what is said it is an apt description and why General Choi is considered the "Founder ' of Tk-D" He created and developed the system by recruiting existing top MA talent "Korean Supermen" into the 29th infantry division. Used them as a resource to develop the new system, then with their athletic prowess and government resources could use military transports to travel for demos to other countries in order too impress people who would seek to learn the art. He also travel to the US for Military Officer training and convinced some like Jhoon Rhee to adopt the new system. Many of the instructors developed in the Military were encouraged to emigrate to other countries and and teach. Some 19 years later their was a radical change in the SK government rendering General Choi persona non grata yet it created a new "Tkd" - Develop system - Allowed Various systems to come under it's Tkd umbrella - create instructors - dispatch to other countries - format.

Great history lesson.
What needs to be emphasized loudly based on the give and take in this thread is that most of these instructors were already at or near Master rank in their own right. They already had years/decades in training. They did not take a 1-day "become a Master" course then move to America.

 

[Flying Crane]

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong.

I disagree with this statement. From what I have observed, successful business often does not go hand-in-hand with quality martial arts instruction. I am sure there are exceptions to what I am saying, but often what i see in financially successful schools is low quality instruction. I’ve noticed this for years, and a couple years ago I had a chance to experience it first hand.

Coming out of Covid, we were looking to enroll our son in a school somewhere to get him engaged once again. He was nine years old at the time. Since he wasn’t interested in learning from me, we decided to look elsewhere, particularly for the social engagement that he would get from it, more so than he would get from working alone with me in the back yard, which he didn’t want to do anyways.

So I did some searching and review of what was local. I checked out two Tae Kwon do schools, both of which have been establishments in my community for many years, and a hybrid type of school that seems to mix elements of Kenpo with a taste of BJJ and mma and some other stuff, they are a well-established regional chain in my area and had recently opened a school in my neighborhood within the previous year or two.

Without exception, I was disappointed in what I saw. They charged a lot of money for very short classes (40 minutes) that were little more than babysitting session. The kids engaged in what I refer to as “martial arts inspired” movement activities which amounted to little more than striking some poses, and lining up to punch a standing bag once or twice before getting back in line, with minimal instruction to ensure good technique or some other learning of any kind. It was really disappointing to see.

I will confess, I did not watch an adult class, although I am not sure if they all had adult classes. Seems every time I drive by all I see at these places are kids.

At any rate, I still considered enrolling him in one of them simply for the social interactions and benefits. But I just couldn’t stomach it.

Finally, we found aikido being taught at the local community center through the Park and Rec department at a price where my son, myself, and my wife could all train for what it would have cost my son alone to train at one of the other locations. So we all signed up.

My wife and I have both held an interest in aikido so this was a chance for us to get some training, the sensei is nothing short of excellent, it is a quality program. It is definitely not a money-maker for him, he is not trying to make a living by it, and it would be hard to say it is a financially successful business even though he has been established for over 25 years in the community. It just isn’t bringing in that kind of income.

There are exceptions to everything. But overall from what I have seen, the successful business style of martial arts seems to typically offer a lower grade of instruction.

For what it’s worth.

 

[Flying Crane]

Double post

 

[HighKick]

I disagree with this statement. From what I have observed, successful business often does not go hand-in-hand with quality martial arts instruction. I am sure there are exceptions to what I am saying, but often what i see in financially successful schools is low quality instruction. I’ve noticed this for years, and a couple years ago I had a chance to experience it first hand.

Coming out of Covid, we were looking to enroll our son in a school somewhere to get him engaged once again. He was nine years old at the time. Since he wasn’t interested in learning from me, we decided to look elsewhere, particularly for the social engagement that he would get from it, more so than he would get from working alone with me in the back yard, which he didn’t want to do anyways.

So I did some searching and review of what was local. I checked out two Tae Kwon do schools, both of which have been establishments in my community for many years, and a hybrid type of school that seems to mix elements of Kenpo with a taste of BJJ and mma and some other stuff, they are a well-established regional chain in my area and had recently opened a school in my neighborhood within the previous year or two.

Without exception, I was disappointed in what I saw. They charged a lot of money for very short classes (40 minutes) that were little more than babysitting session. The kids engaged in what I refer to as “martial arts inspired” movement activities which amounted to little more than striking some poses, and lining up to punch a standing bag once or twice before getting back in line, with minimal instruction to ensure good technique or some other learning of any kind. It was really disappointing to see.

I will confess, I did not watch an adult class, although I am not sure if they all had adult classes. Seems every time I drive by all I see at these places are kids.

At any rate, I still considered enrolling him in one of them simply for the social interactions and benefits. But I just couldn’t stomach it.

Finally, we found aikido being taught at the local community center through the Park and Rec department at a price where my son, myself, and my wife could all train for what it would have cost my son alone to train at one of the other locations. So we all signed up.

My wife and I have both held an interest in aikido so this was a chance for us to get some training, the sensei is nothing short of excellent, it is a quality program. It is definitely not a money-maker for him, he is not trying to make a living by it, and it would be hard to say it is a financially successful business even though he has been established for over 25 years in the community. It just isn’t bringing in that kind of income.

There are exceptions to everything. But overall from what I have seen, the successful business style of martial arts seems to typically offer a lower grade of instruction.

For what it’s worth.

Fully agree. I suppose I should have added an "excluding McDojo's" caveat.
What I was trying to get across is good martial arts schools in a for-profit environment.
Remember, Skribs has the idea of making a (good) living as a MA's instructor.
Looks like it is too late for me to edit the post.

 

[skribs]

If there two sides to a story, which is EVERY time, this could not be more logical. Just like the give and take you and I are having in your current debacle.

You're not arguing in good faith here.

When you claim someone's story has holes, it means there are things about the story that don't make sense or there are contradictions in the story. Claiming a story has holes because you only hear one side of it makes it impossible to argue with you.

It is a fair argument to say that you're only seeing one side of the story, and then you could conjecture as to what the other side is. It would be a fair thing to say that there are holes in my story if you can provide examples of contradictions.

You're using this as an excuse to just say that my story is a lie with no evidence or reason to think so. It's a bad faith argument.

For sure, that is true sometimes. But specifically, we are talking about MA's schools where financial success and longevity are strong indicators that things are being done the right way much more than wrong. That does Not explicitly mean your way or viewpoint on all things.
'Good' can be subjective. A person can be near perfect ethically and morally, but still not have a personality that you gel with. Happens all the time. With some people, much more than others.

This is just incorrect. Others on this thread have backed me up on this.

I never questioned your willingness to pay. Heck, you have been trying to short-cut the system for a long time so I assumed you would pay if someone was unethical enough to take your money for a KKW rank.
By 'people', I assume you mean other school owners? Not returning calls or emails should have been taken as another sign to nut-up and get your butt in a school, put you head down, close your mouth and just train. Instead, you want to jump to the front of the line every time.

Shortcut the system? I got my 3rd degree in 2018. That was 7 years ago. I was eligible to test for 4th degree in 2021, before I left my previous school.

I did look for schools in my area. There was only one I found that was even worth looking at. One school rejected me because they were worried I might make them look bad. (The way they phrased it is they can't bring in high black belts from "outside the family"). One school was so worried about the image of TKD as being fake that they purposefully made their training dangerous. The third school simply did not work you very hard. They would have kids do a workout that consisted of one set of: 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. (In the advanced class). You weren't allowed to run, weren't allowed to kick hard, they barely sparred, when they did self-defense it was so choreographed that the moment you touch the other person they flop on the ground.

I wasn't going to get much out of this school, and he kept going back and forth on whether I could test for 3rd dan in 1 year or in 3 years. I did not want to waste 3 years doing virtually nothing just to get a certificate. I decided getting a physical workout and learning actual skills in BJJ was more worth it than attending this school. I did feel at my old TKD school (before I moved away) that I was getting those things: a good workout and good technique.

In a nutshell, you willingly went back to the 'biting hand you repeatedly fed' only after you tried a couple other avenues that you could not short-cut.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. I bit nobody's hand. My Master apologized to my Dad last year for how he treated our family, and I took that as an invitation to return and re-establish our relationship. I visited last year and discussed my issues with progressing to 4th degree. This is when we discussed reestablishing the Master/Student relationship and me coming back to test.

You mentioned in the previous reply that I was trying to strongarm him. I think you may have misread my post on the subject? I was not trying to strongarm him into letting me test. He was trying to strongarm me into opening a branch school under him by withholding rank unless I agree to send him a bunch of money when I open my school.

5th Dan in what? Is it the Dan number you perceive as having value or from where a certificate originates? Just got to 4imprint and they will make you any certificate you want.

I was specifically referring to how high a Master can promote without a student needing to go to a promotion board. In this case, I am trying to establish my understanding and interpretation of facts, and how that understanding and interpretation has changed as I've received more information.

My original belief (before I left) was that a Master could promote as long as they were a higher degree than what you were promoting to. My Master corroborated this when I visited last year, and he said that he could promote me up to 5th degree, and that he was preparing for his 7th degree promotion and after that he could promote me to 6th degree. He wasn't planning on immediately promoting me, the idea is that in 4-5 years I could test for 5th under him and in 5-6 years after that, I could test for 6th. As I said, we were trying to re-establish our relationship.

There is no value I am attributing to the 5th degree when I say this. (I'm also not saying it's invaluable or undesirable, I am simply not attributing a value to it right now). When I said this, I was merely stating the fact that my Master claimed he could eventually promote me to 5th and even 6th degree based on his current trajectory.

Financially: True. I do not know how deep your pockets are, but I do know you have made zero progress in actually starting your business. That is an indicator of lack of finances, financial fear, or both.

Now you're just being silly. You spend money when the budget calls for it, not before. If I'm going to be paying bills, paying upkeep costs, storage costs, interest, etc., I should probably have income coming in from the business first. If I'm not ready to buckle down and open, it would be foolish of me to put money down now.

It is incredibly bad advice to suggest someone financially ruin themselves just to prove that they have the finances. This is like instagram models who buy everything on credit and are in tremendous debt. Shame on you for this one.

In scientific and engineering experiments, observation will only get you so far. Empirical evidence must move to concrete evidence through real-world testing and trial and error (confirm or disconfirm). Test, fail, change, adjust, try again until the error resolves to an acceptable level.
You have yet to move to the concrete evidence phase.

I'm teaching right now. I'm learning from there. I don't just sit on Martial Talk all day. Do you lack object permanence? Do you think I only exist when I'm conversing with you and I do not do anything else when I sign off of my computer?

In fact, I have mentioned in this thread that I am coaching BJJ and cardio kickboxing at my BJJ gym, and I spent a lot of time coaching in TKD when I went to test. I am learning and continuing to learn through others to become a better teacher.

Very true that all advice is Not good advice. But you actively cheery pick the advice that fits your bias.

Yes, I don't blindly accept advice. I think about it and consider it.

Do you just blindly accept all advice that is given to you? If so, I suggest you spend all of your money on lottery tickets.

And if you don't, it's only because you're cherry picking advice that fits your bias, and you're now a hypocrite.

I assume the mentor/mentee comment is directed at me.

Yes and no. It was directed at you because you're trying to be a mentor to me when I have not asked for it. But it reminded me of multiple others who have done this.

You have contradicted yourself in at least 2-3 of your posts just in this thread alone. Again, I encourage you to go back, and really, really read what you posted.

Again, you're claiming contradictions, but have not provided a single example. You're just spewing nonsense at this point.

Where have I manipulated you or been deceitful to you? I have never even met you. I don't really know what gaslighting is, so there is that. If it means saying/doing things to get someone to react or see things in a different light then yes, I have gaslit the h**l out of you.

Manipulation: You twist words to fit your arguments. You try to put me on the back foot of the argument by making baseless and false accusations against me. You act like you're trying to help me, but you're giving me bad advice.

Deceitful: I pointed to several examples where you made baseless accusations or false accusations against me.

Gaslighting: Gaslighting is when you try to convince someone of an alternate reality, either as a form of abuse or for some sort of gain. For example, if a man cheats on his wife and she figures it out, he tries to convince her that she is paranoid and making things up. Or if the media wants to push a narrative, for example if they claim that 99% of Americans eat pineapple on their pizza and you're crazy if you don't, only to get kickbacks from Big Pineapple. (I tried to find something politically neutral as an analogy).

In this case, you're gaslighting me by trying to tell me that you know more about my own personal experiences than I do. You're telling me about my finances, my mental state, my physical state. You're trying to tell me that you know more about my former Master's motivations and ethics than I do. Someone that you don't even know who he is because I haven't named him, but I've known since 2013.