master rank
- Thread starter sgraves
- Start date
What do you consider to be "master" rank? I believe some of the Korean arts have ranks which are referred to as "master" and "grandmaster" status, but most other arts don't have any sort of official "master" rank.
That's a question that has no real answer. "Master" can be any rank, depending upon the style. We don't use that term in our art, so I'd have to ask where you draw that line.
Rank, in general, is nearly meaningless between styles (sometimes between schools in the same association). It's useful for telling where someone is in a given curriculum, and not really much else.
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
master rank is usually 5 th degree black at least that what I thought .
Some styles don't have a rank that high. My style ends at 3rd degree (currently). We have "Senior Student" (1st degree), "Instructor" (2nd degree), and "Senior Instructor" (3rd degree).
The association I came up in only had 5 ranks (ostensible 6, but no one holding 6th for most of its history). In that assocation, 2nd or 3rd would be equivalent to 5th in some 10-dan systems, though that translation is pretty specious.
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
oh okay that's interesting
Remember that rank is really just a way to tell where someone fits within a school - perhaps within an association (I've seen associations where that wasn't a good measure).
A "for-instance": In some styles, you can't teach until 5th or 7th dan, and 1st dan is fairly easy to get. 1st in those styles is viewed as the start of any significant learning.
In other styles, 1st is an instructor rank, and is much harder to get. It may require advanced testing as well as student teaching and curriculum development. Comparing 1st dan (or any other rank) between those styles is like comparing cars of the same color.
Maybe in TKD? (I'll defer to the TKD practitioners on that.) It doesn't necessarily carry that title in other arts. Furthermore, "black belt" or "5th degree black belt" doesn't carry the same meaning from art to art or even from school to school within the same art.
In one art a black belt might represent the achievement of a typical student who trains 2-3 times per week for 3 years and demonstrates some memorized techniques. In another art a black belt might represent the achievement of a dedicated student who trains 4-5 times per week for 12 years and demonstrates his fighting ability in a full-contact context.
In one art a 5th degree black belt might require demonstration of new material for that rank. In another art, that 5th degree might be an administrative rank based on time dedicated to advancement of the art.
Many other arts don't even have belt ranks. Some arts don't have official ranks of any sort.
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
very true
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
that is also true
I study a traditional southern Chinese martial art, Wing Chun (Ving Tsun). Traditionally, there were no ranks, just your level of accomplishment as recognized by your Sifu. In the modern world that has changed. But whatever rank my association awards me (my last promotion was back about 1987?) I honestly don't expect to ever reach "master" level.
As far as I'm concerned, the term "master" should be reserved for the truly awesome. And "Grandmaster" is a title to die for. Literally.
....as an honorific posthumously awarded to the guy who's black-framed picture you bow to before and after practice. Like this guy:
As far as I'm concerned, the term "master" should be reserved for the truly awesome. And "Grandmaster" is a title to die for. Literally.
....as an honorific posthumously awarded to the guy who's black-framed picture you bow to before and after practice. Like this guy:
Last edited:
BTW rank inflation really bugs me. It's bad enough in TCMA, but worse in the Filipino martial arts. Half the instructors I know are "masters", and an awful lot are "grandmasters". In fact most of the well known names are now GGMs (great-grandmasters). What BS. My first teacher was very, very good and learned from legends. He had us call him by his first name. Later, he paired up with another association that insisted that everybody call him "Grandmaster".
I went to one his seminars offered in conjunction with that group. I remember privately asking him how I should address him. He shrugged and said to call him "Grandmaster" in front of the group and by his first name when we were training privately. I think he basically went along with their hype to keep everybody happy. The irony is that I probably showed more respect using his first name than all those casual students calling him "Grandmaster".
I'm at the point now where my students still call me "sifu" (since WC is my foundation) -- but I think I'd be happier with the simple, honest term "coach".
BTW my hat's off to guys like Michael B. in Phoenix (people from the area will know who his is). He really is a master, but won't let anybody call him anything but "Mike"!
I went to one his seminars offered in conjunction with that group. I remember privately asking him how I should address him. He shrugged and said to call him "Grandmaster" in front of the group and by his first name when we were training privately. I think he basically went along with their hype to keep everybody happy. The irony is that I probably showed more respect using his first name than all those casual students calling him "Grandmaster".
I'm at the point now where my students still call me "sifu" (since WC is my foundation) -- but I think I'd be happier with the simple, honest term "coach".
BTW my hat's off to guys like Michael B. in Phoenix (people from the area will know who his is). He really is a master, but won't let anybody call him anything but "Mike"!
Where did you get that idea? It's completely wrong, just FYI.
In the KKW, 4th Dan is considered "Master", but even that seems to be a westernization. My understanding is that in Korea, ANY Dan rank is referred to as Master.
I think that in the ITF, 5th Dan is "Master" but I could easily be remembering that incorrectly.
In the Moo Duk Kwan, it doesn't seem to actually be linked to a particular rank. I've seen letters from our KJN addressing my instructor as "Master" way back when he was a 3rd Dan.
Personally, I'm "Mr Cochran" or "Sir" in class, and "Mark" everywhere else.
Midnight-shadow
3rd Black Belt
My system doesn't have set ranks or belt colours, and instead your progress is linked to how many different forms you know (there are 20 in our system). You get a red sash for completing your first grading and that's it. Occasionally my instructor will refer to those who have passed 4 gradings as the "seniors" and the others as the "juniors" but that's really as far as it goes. He doesn't claim to be a Master and will never refer to himself a sifu even though he's been practicing for over 20 years.
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
All the master ranks I have run into have been 5 the degree that's why I'm getting information ,different things for different styles.
OP
OP
sgraves
Green Belt
He is def an inspiration especially to wing chin practioner.this was truly a great warriorI study a traditional southern Chinese martial art, Wing Chun (Ving Tsun). Traditionally, there were no ranks, just your level of accomplishment as recognized by your Sifu. In the modern world that has changed. But whatever rank my association awards me (my last promotion was back about 1987?) I honestly don't expect to ever reach "master" level.
As far as I'm concerned, the term "master" should be reserved for the truly awesome. And "Grandmaster" is a title to die for. Literally.
....as an honorific posthumously awarded to the guy who's black-framed picture you bow to before and after practice. Like this guy:
I bow to the tradition of my art and have my students call me "Mr. Seymour" or "Sensei" in class. As for your "coach", that's essentially the equivalent of "sifu" or "sensei", so why not use it?
I've been fortune enough to train under some wonderful people. Having the deepest respect for Martial protocol, my students would address me as my teachers wanted them to. And to this day when I visit or teach at the schools of friends, they tell their students how to address me while I'm there. Over the years it's been Sensei, Sabunim, Kwanjangnim, Master and my first name. (forgive me for any spelling errors, I really don't remember any more)
But since the turn of the century (doesn't that sound weird?) everyone calls me coach, which I prefer. As for rank, I've politely refused that since 1988. Once in a while you get bushwhacked and promoted in front of others and can't really insult them by turning it down.
Like sgraves, while I was in Tae-kwon-do, I was taught that 5th was the start of Master rank. Which, my instructor rarely, if ever, promoted anyone to.
If any of this is incorrect to others, so be it. Doesn't really matter to me. The only belts that matter to me are those appointed to my direct students. I don't even care what or how they promote or test their own students. I raised them to be students, teachers and good men and women and to think on their own.
I have some teachers who always had me address them by first name, so I did. I have friends who've been training and teaching in traditional Martial Arts for fifty years and more. Some of them are Judans now, others are eights and ninths (pikers!) and I address them as such in front of their students or at Martial events, anywhere else they're just Joe, Van, Charlie ect. Or hey, you, where'd we park the damn car?
But since the turn of the century (doesn't that sound weird?) everyone calls me coach, which I prefer. As for rank, I've politely refused that since 1988. Once in a while you get bushwhacked and promoted in front of others and can't really insult them by turning it down.
Like sgraves, while I was in Tae-kwon-do, I was taught that 5th was the start of Master rank. Which, my instructor rarely, if ever, promoted anyone to.
If any of this is incorrect to others, so be it. Doesn't really matter to me. The only belts that matter to me are those appointed to my direct students. I don't even care what or how they promote or test their own students. I raised them to be students, teachers and good men and women and to think on their own.
I have some teachers who always had me address them by first name, so I did. I have friends who've been training and teaching in traditional Martial Arts for fifty years and more. Some of them are Judans now, others are eights and ninths (pikers!) and I address them as such in front of their students or at Martial events, anywhere else they're just Joe, Van, Charlie ect. Or hey, you, where'd we park the damn car?
JR 137
Grandmaster
Most traditional karate schools I'm aware of call people Shihan (Japanese for master) at 6th dan. Kyokushin is the only one I know of that calls 5th dan Shihan. Many karate schools, especially Okinawan call teachers Sensei, regardless of rank; the titles are usually used ceremonially or on formal occasions.
Karate schools have different titles at different ranks and/or accomplishments, such as renshi, hanshi, kancho, kaicho, etc. All of those have different meanings, and different schools use them differently. However, those titles are most often given/earned after 6th dan, which is master level.
Edit: I'm nowhere close to any master rank. In my former karate life, I was getting ready to test for 2nd dan. Restarting 15 years later, I'm a 4th kyu.
Karate schools have different titles at different ranks and/or accomplishments, such as renshi, hanshi, kancho, kaicho, etc. All of those have different meanings, and different schools use them differently. However, those titles are most often given/earned after 6th dan, which is master level.
Edit: I'm nowhere close to any master rank. In my former karate life, I was getting ready to test for 2nd dan. Restarting 15 years later, I'm a 4th kyu.
Last edited:
How can you tell him he is wrong when you admit you may not have the correct answer?
