Martial master, master of everything?

[jks9199]

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for a highly skilled martial arts master, especially one who is very charismatic, to be seen as a master of a lot of other things, in fact, a master of everything. Often, their pronouncements on things are taken as true or obvious errors ignored. I'm not naming names or listing examples at the moment, but it's not something limited to one style or another. This even goes on to a bit of a lesser degree in the common perception that a martial arts instructor has special knowledge and wisdom. Think of Mr. Miyagi giving Daniel-san life lessons, or Master Po's teaching the young Kwai Chang Caine wisdom...

But sometimes, maybe often, what they say is wrong. Dead wrong. Like factual errors or medical impossibilities. Or unwise or even stupid advice, sometimes.

Have you seen this? Do you have any thoughts or ideas on why it is? Or what can be done about it?

 

[Aiki Lee]

Are you referring to the phenomenon that just because someone may be a master of the fighting arts people assume they are awesome at everything? Like how someone thinks just because someone has high martial skill he must be an elightened zen monk who is perfect and never gets angry?

 

[jks9199]

That's part of it. But also the instances where a grandmaster makes an actual, distinct factual error or states something that just doesn't happen, and it gets ignored -- or even repeated. Or even the simple "sensei is the font of wisdom" effect...

 

[MJS]

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for a highly skilled martial arts master, especially one who is very charismatic, to be seen as a master of a lot of other things, in fact, a master of everything. Often, their pronouncements on things are taken as true or obvious errors ignored. I'm not naming names or listing examples at the moment, but it's not something limited to one style or another. This even goes on to a bit of a lesser degree in the common perception that a martial arts instructor has special knowledge and wisdom. Think of Mr. Miyagi giving Daniel-san life lessons, or Master Po's teaching the young Kwai Chang Caine wisdom...

But sometimes, maybe often, what they say is wrong. Dead wrong. Like factual errors or medical impossibilities. Or unwise or even stupid advice, sometimes.

Have you seen this? Do you have any thoughts or ideas on why it is? Or what can be done about it?

I think it may be an assumption, due to the fact that people see someone with a high rank, someone who's dedicated themselves to years of training in an art, so they assume that because of that, the person is an expert on everything. Perhaps its because many teachers....or typically ones that we see wearing high rank, are much older, thus, have lived longer, so they've seen more.

I think that alot of time, out of respect for the person, even if an error is made or something is said thats wrong, nobody says anything. Of course, its probably not the best thing to do in front of a class room full of students...lol.

I try, when I post and when I teach, to not make myself come off as a know it all or expert. Sure, I'm a black belt. Does that mean that I somehow know it all? In some peoples minds, sure it does...lol. But I think that their ego, and they get off on that....having people look up to them. Me....yup, I'm a BB, I've been training for a long time, but IMHO, I'm still on the road of learning. I give my views, my take on things. Its like advice....if someone finds it useful, great! If they don't, thats fine too...lol. Again, I'm not offended if they pick the latter, because my ego isnt that huge...lol.

 

[jks9199]

I know I put my foot in my mouth enough when I try to make a comparison that it's clear that I don't know EVERYTHING...

And there's no secret or doubt that I've learned a lot of things beyond the martial arts from my teachers, but I've also realized that there's plenty that they don't know, too.

 

[j-squared]

I think it happens often. People I think, have a tendency to give greater weight to persons in position of authority or power. Look at all the celebrity endorsements that literally are worthless.

 

[Tez3]

I do know everything, not because I'm a martial artist but because I'm a mother and mothers always know best! :ultracool

Seriously though, it is annoying when some martial arts instructors or higher grades take on that eastern mystical wise sensei thing. Too much watching films I suspect. Ah grasshopper.....no one wants to be grasshopper, everyone wants to be the wise old man. I think it's this too that puts my back up when a martial artists claim to be more moral than anyone else too, I dislike the moral clauses some have you sign before you can train with them, they will claim to make you a 'better' person. I don't want to be a 'better' person, I like being cantankerous! I just want martial arts to teach me to fight, nowt else.

 

[geezer]

What I find especially disturbing is the expectation that the head instructor should be a "font of wisdom". I'm sure I've lost students over the years because I won't pretend to be all that. But on the other hand, I've kept a few who are smart enough to see through that kind of BS... and they are kind I rather work with anyway. I have a similarly direct and down-to earth relationship with my instructors.

 

[sfs982000]

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for a highly skilled martial arts master, especially one who is very charismatic, to be seen as a master of a lot of other things, in fact, a master of everything. Often, their pronouncements on things are taken as true or obvious errors ignored.

Have you seen this? Do you have any thoughts or ideas on why it is? Or what can be done about it?

I haven't personally seen this behavior myself, but I can possibly see it more as a mentoring issue. A person with a higher grade or in a position of authority can and sometimes should be looked upon as mentor. Now there is the issue that a person may not necessarily be ready for that position of authority as far as maturity goes and starts believing their own hype if you will. The military is a great example, there are some truly great leaders, but then again there are alot of folks running around with alot of rank that make you wonder how in the heck they got to where they are and just by virtue of the rank they hold they expect you to buy what they're spewing whether it's right or wrong.

 

[Gnarlie]

Some of the morally and politically questionable things that happen in the MA world make it clear that being a master at life is not necessarily a requirement for being a master of a martial art. I form my views of people based on how they behave and what they say, not based on their MA grade, but I seem to be in the minority sometimes. It's a shame that the public perception of 'Master' bears little or no relation to what that word actually means in the MA context.

On the other hand, often MA Masters can have a strength of character, charisma and/or experience outside of the martial context that makes them ideal candidates for mentoring and developing others. In some organisations these skills are prerequisites, and are measured. I guess if I was the sort to look for a life coach, then 'Master of X' on their CV/resume would be an added bonus, but only if they had some form of other relevant qualification.

Also, just realised I haven't actually answered the question clearly -- I think it happens because although Master is a position of responsibility, not everyone treats it that way and fulfils their obligation to be an expert in their field.

What can be done about it? Not much, apart from educating the public on just what the 'minimum requirement' meaning of 'Master' is: someone who has fulfilled a set of arbitrary physical and mental requirements over time, depending on their organisation. What they do and say today is more important than what they have done in the past - those who deserve respect earn it every single day.

 

[WC_lun]

Some people get thier ego tied up in being the instructor. It isn't really about teaching, but being on that percieved pedestal. Then fear sets in of being kocked off that pedestal. Not knowing something or even worse, being wrong about something, becomes a threat to them. So they will say just about anything to keep from being wrong or unknowing. Unfortunately, where I have seen this manifested the worst is in teachers who are actually lacking in real martial knowledge. It is a vicious game they play that in the end harms both themselves and thier students. Obviously, I've been subjected to an "instructor" that has done this

 

[seasoned]

Similar to a masters degree in higher education. Wisdom, can transcend all levels, but knowledge in a specific path of learning pertains to that specific path. People sometimes, put other people on pedestals.

There is book knowledge, and life knowledge (wisdom) perhaps. If a person possesses both, this can make them a gifted individual indeed. If through being treated special because of it, goes to that persons head, it could cause them to think very highly of themselves. Even, to the point of feeling like they are all knowing.

I think this phenomenon can be seen greatly in martial arts.

 

[Tez3]

I haven't personally seen this behavior myself, but I can possibly see it more as a mentoring issue. A person with a higher grade or in a position of authority can and sometimes should be looked upon as mentor. Now there is the issue that a person may not necessarily be ready for that position of authority as far as maturity goes and starts believing their own hype if you will. The military is a great example, there are some truly great leaders, but then again there are alot of folks running around with alot of rank that make you wonder how in the heck they got to where they are and just by virtue of the rank they hold they expect you to buy what they're spewing whether it's right or wrong.

Ah now that is an easy one to answer! It's called the Brittas Effect after a TV comedy series here. That was about a manager of a Leisure/Sports centre who didn't have a clue how to manage people, was accident prone ( several people died in the series) and basically was inept and useless. Ironically he explains how inept people get promotion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDdXHmNhAOI&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLDCF0DE1CA78C6CCB

 

[Wo Fat]

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for a highly skilled martial arts master, especially one who is very charismatic, to be seen as a master of a lot of other things, in fact, a master of everything. Often, their pronouncements on things are taken as true or obvious errors ignored. I'm not naming names or listing examples at the moment, but it's not something limited to one style or another. This even goes on to a bit of a lesser degree in the common perception that a martial arts instructor has special knowledge and wisdom. Think of Mr. Miyagi giving Daniel-san life lessons, or Master Po's teaching the young Kwai Chang Caine wisdom...

But sometimes, maybe often, what they say is wrong. Dead wrong. Like factual errors or medical impossibilities. Or unwise or even stupid advice, sometimes.

Have you seen this? Do you have any thoughts or ideas on why it is? Or what can be done about it?

I think it's important to draw a clear distinction between an instructor of today, and the legendary and mythical grandmasters and supreme grandmasters of yester-year. Some arts are new and applicable to today's standards of self-defense and combatives. An argument can also be made that some grandmasters and supreme grandmasters are/were so influential in their mythology, that it's passed along to today's instructors--many of whom either don't know any better or don't want to know.

It's probably a safe bet that a majority of martial arts students accept their Masters' and Grandmasters' teachings and stories as truth, and rely on it completely. And that is the right of each to do so. At the same time, when those Masters and Grandmasters pass along fishing stories and ineffective techniques as real martial knowledge and history, they often don't realize that they are negatively impacting not only their own personal legacy, but their art. It will be the burden of students and instructors of today, to go back and examine and investigate if what they've learned is legit. Not so much the "legend" of the Master, but the legitimacy of the techniques that such legend taught and passed down.

 

[Chris Parker]

Knowing where JKS has gotten the impetus for this thread from, perhaps some clarification. I don't think he's talking about the idea of an instructor being seen as definitively authoritative in their martial arts field, but outside of that, wanting, or trying to be seen as experts in other areas, such as history, physics, anything, really. Now, if they're actually educated in that area, sure, but there are instances where instructors really don't know what they're talking about, or make fundamental mistakes when discussing such topics, but what is said is taken as completely valid and correct. Kinda like a martial arts instructor telling the class that the reason the sky is blue is due to giant blue lamps on satelites orbiting the Earth (although not usually such a clever deception.... )

As to where it comes from, at least in the case of Japanese systems, there is an undercurrent of cultural beliefs from both sides coming into it. From a Japanese perspective, the core of teaching is made up of a few basic principles: Believe what you're told, Do what you're told, and Don't question what you're told. What this means is that, from a Japanese perspective, students aren't expected to ask many questions. It's assumed that if your instructor doesn't tell you something, you don't need to know it yet. Additionally, asking questions where the teacher doesn't know the answer can potentially embarrass them, causing a loss of face. The big problem occurs when Westerners make up the vast majority of students... as our education system teaches us to ask questions, and seek clarification. And we're used to getting answers when we ask.

Typically, there are two different responces that can happen. The first is that the instructor will attempt to answer the question (in order to not be seen as not informed), but will get increasingly frustrated, and stop answering, just telling you to train. The other is that, if the answers are accepted, the instructor will simply keep answering, whether or not they actually know the answers. This can heighten the way the instructor is seen by the students (as always having the answers), which leads to less questioning of answers in the future, creating a cycle.

What can be done? Well, simply, a little critical thinking. I encourage my students to question even what I tell them, and deliberately give incorrect information from time to time (which is then pointed out, typically after asking who agrees with what I'd said).... with the aim being that they have to understand what is being said, which ensures they're paying attention to the lessons, as well as them critically assessing what is presented, and, if it doesn't match what they already know (and I can't demonstrate why the lesson is the way it is), they shouldn't accept it.

 

[jks9199]

Knowing where JKS has gotten the impetus for this thread from, perhaps some clarification. I don't think he's talking about the idea of an instructor being seen as definitively authoritative in their martial arts field, but outside of that, wanting, or trying to be seen as experts in other areas, such as history, physics, anything, really. Now, if they're actually educated in that area, sure, but there are instances where instructors really don't know what they're talking about, or make fundamental mistakes when discussing such topics, but what is said is taken as completely valid and correct. Kinda like a martial arts instructor telling the class that the reason the sky is blue is due to giant blue lamps on satelites orbiting the Earth (although not usually such a clever deception.... )

As to where it comes from, at least in the case of Japanese systems, there is an undercurrent of cultural beliefs from both sides coming into it. From a Japanese perspective, the core of teaching is made up of a few basic principles: Believe what you're told, Do what you're told, and Don't question what you're told. What this means is that, from a Japanese perspective, students aren't expected to ask many questions. It's assumed that if your instructor doesn't tell you something, you don't need to know it yet. Additionally, asking questions where the teacher doesn't know the answer can potentially embarrass them, causing a loss of face. The big problem occurs when Westerners make up the vast majority of students... as our education system teaches us to ask questions, and seek clarification. And we're used to getting answers when we ask.

Typically, there are two different responces that can happen. The first is that the instructor will attempt to answer the question (in order to not be seen as not informed), but will get increasingly frustrated, and stop answering, just telling you to train. The other is that, if the answers are accepted, the instructor will simply keep answering, whether or not they actually know the answers. This can heighten the way the instructor is seen by the students (as always having the answers), which leads to less questioning of answers in the future, creating a cycle.

What can be done? Well, simply, a little critical thinking. I encourage my students to question even what I tell them, and deliberately give incorrect information from time to time (which is then pointed out, typically after asking who agrees with what I'd said).... with the aim being that they have to understand what is being said, which ensures they're paying attention to the lessons, as well as them critically assessing what is presented, and, if it doesn't match what they already know (and I can't demonstrate why the lesson is the way it is), they shouldn't accept it.

That was part of it -- but also even the expectation that a black belt or teacher is some special source of wisdom, not merely fighting instruction. I've heard of people who relied upon the guidance of their martial arts instructor for everything, including who to marry.

Folks, I ain't special. I'm a working cop. I happen to be a black belt. I've got a fair education. But don't ask me to tell you who to marry. And I damn well might be wrong in my recollection of history or something like that. I make mistakes just like anyone else, and I don't need to be on a pedestal. I admit, I went through a hero worship phase like many others do, but I realize too that my teachers can be wrong. If what they say flies in the face of my other training and experience... well, I do my best to assess it and figure out the truth. I may not call them on it publicly, and it doesn't destroy my respect for them -- but I don't assume that every word that falls from their lips is true, either.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Respect for an obvious talent sometimes morphs into reverence, which can lead to discipleship. And while some forms of martial arts training are tied to religion, most in the US are not. However, when one is a disciple, one does what one is told by the person followed.

It can also be said that people respected for one talent they clearly have can let it go to their heads, and when given deference in other areas, begin to accept it as their due. I doubt it happens overnight.

Consider the political statements made by famous personalities, actors, or musicians. Being very good at creating motorcycles or winning an Oscar or a Tony award do not make one knowledgeable on things outside their field of expertise.

I would not ask my priest how to block a roundhouse kick, and I would not ask my sensei for marriage counseling for my wife and me. Unless my sensei was my priest also, I guess.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

People are people and not one person understands or knows everything!

I have had the opportunity to train with some great instructors of the highest level in their respective systems through the years. In certain things they are or were geniuses at what they could do and their knowledge. I might add that I am very, very, very grateful to them for passing on some of their knowledge to me. (even if in some cases it was just a little bit) Yet, invariably..... each one of them is or was (some are deceased) a person with flaws at some level. I have yet to meet and all knowing or master of everything person in any field let alone the Martial Sciences. I have also yet to meet someone who did not have flaws at some level or major issues that I may have had a hard time ignoring. In addressing jks9199 question on what can be done about it? Simple, understand that anyone teaching is a person and while they may have incredible skill, good morals, etc. (whatever traits you are looking for) do not put them on a pedestal! Instead enjoy what they teach and learn but also understand that they are a person just like you and the other students in class and for that matter everyone in the world. As a person they will have some flaws. Like Chris said above be critical and think plus assess what is presented. Critical thinking is important for every Martial practitioner so that you do not get caught up in some kind of pathetic and yes very dangerous fantasy!

 

[Wo Fat]

Folks, I ain't special. I'm a working cop. I happen to be a black belt. I've got a fair education. But don't ask me to tell you who to marry. And I damn well might be wrong in my recollection of history or something like that. I make mistakes just like anyone else, and I don't need to be on a pedestal. I admit, I went through a hero worship phase like many others do, but I realize too that my teachers can be wrong. If what they say flies in the face of my other training and experience... well, I do my best to assess it and figure out the truth. I may not call them on it publicly, and it doesn't destroy my respect for them -- but I don't assume that every word that falls from their lips is true, either.

I, for one, am glad that there are more people who recognize mystical hero worship and disciple-ship for what it is and isn't. It can hurt the art that one trains in and teaches. My students quickly learned that I am not representing some holy or revered lineage, but rather delivering the best martial arts experience that I can. And even then, I rely on students to evaluate every technique that they learn in order to test the legitimacy of it.

 

[puunui]

It doesn't seem to be uncommon for a highly skilled martial arts master, especially one who is very charismatic, to be seen as a master of a lot of other things, in fact, a master of everything. Often, their pronouncements on things are taken as true or obvious errors ignored.

I don't know if being a master of one thing makes you a master of all things. But I will say that the process of mastering one thing is transferable to learning and mastering another completely different thing.