Martial Arts for Law Enforcement...

[Steve]

I can tell you most cops are "sheepdogs" (not wolves) looking to protect the public and sometimes that requires uncomfortable contacts/investigations that involve taxpayers/regular non-criminal people. It can be difficult getting to the bottom of a call ("terry stop") when emotions are high and everyone on scene is like, "I didn't do anything"! why are to stopping me"!

Sometimes things happen that shouldn't happen based on a split-second decision that the cops needs to make. A cop is only as good as his/her training, experience, and the situation often is moving fast. I can tell you statistically speaking (no emotions or CNN one-sided video) most cops get it right and do the right thing or as close to that as it can get. Please see the supreme court case law graham v connor (1889) on how cops are judged.

I was just looking to start a conversation about L.E. training and the martial arts. That being said, I know the world is charges right now and reform in law enforcement in needed. I'm a trainer and FTO so I see things maybe a little different then some cops. I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.

I question the need for most cops to carry guns. Firefighters don't pack heat, nor are the EMTs, but they report to the same accident scenes as cops. Social workers are carrying sidearms, and they work with people who are homeless, often addicted to drugs and/or suffering from mental illness. Most of what cops do is show up after a crime has occurred and take a report. They don't need to be armed to do that, IMO.

All that said, in your opinion, what do you think of the 8 can't wait campaign? Do you think the policies and training suggested by those guys would help? Seems reasonable to me as a starting point.

8 Can't Wait

 

[Steve]

Those days are gone. The majority of citizens no longer accept that. Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.
As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct. Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts. If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime. I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department.

Today's environment is hot. NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag, Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag, statues are being torn down. More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed. Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong. What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change. Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block. More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.

The really sad thing is that there is a huge trust deficit between the police and significant portion of the public. The difference recently is that this trust deficit is growing significantly, expanding into demographics where cops have historically enjoyed a lot of support. The result is that we see that supporting police is becoming a political rally point no more or less significant than wearing a mask. What I mean is, if you are in X demographic, you probably don't support wearing a mask, think kneeling at a football game is disrespectful to the troops, and support the cops while waving your confederate flag. That's going to be a huge problem as that trend grows, because this demographic seems to be a solid 38% of the country, and if only 38% of the country trusts the police, we are in big trouble.

If the politicization continues, it will end up leading to a pipeline of "bad apples" choosing to become cops. Look at what happened in the border patrol as a forecast for what will happen with the police, unless some significant reform is put in place to restore the public trust.

To be clear, the politicization is not being done largely BY cops. Like the military, they are being politicized by other people. But it is within the power of the police organizations to embrace reform and work to restore the trust in the institution. If that doesn't happen, it will become more and more political and that's just bad for everyone.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed. as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police. to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic. The fix is MORE training. Required weekly training. Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...

 

[Steve]

well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed. as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police. to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic. The fix is MORE training. Required weekly training. Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...

Training isn't going to fix anything until you address the culture. Maybe we just disagree, but it's a bit of a chicken/egg thing. You can't fix a culture with training. You have to excise the "bad apples" and ensure everyone who remains is on board with the new direction. Then you will have some fertile ground for training.

Regarding guns, we might just disagree there, too. Which is fine. We hear often about people who allege that in their entire careers, they never had to draw their weapons. And then you look at the actual stats regarding weapons use in police forces, where cops literally hit what they're aiming at about 30% of the time, and more like 10% when they're being fired upon... and you read about people being shot in the back by police officers who are scared.

I do agree that training is an important part of the equation, but first, we need to set the stage and ensure everyone is on board. Training is the last step, not the first.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

One more example of what i'm saying...

 

[Buka]

Always vigilant, always masked. And, yes, the banana is loaded.

 

[drop bear]

I question the need for most cops to carry guns. Firefighters don't pack heat, nor are the EMTs, but they report to the same accident scenes as cops. Social workers are carrying sidearms, and they work with people who are homeless, often addicted to drugs and/or suffering from mental illness. Most of what cops do is show up after a crime has occurred and take a report. They don't need to be armed to do that, IMO.

All that said, in your opinion, what do you think of the 8 can't wait campaign? Do you think the policies and training suggested by those guys would help? Seems reasonable to me as a starting point.

8 Can't Wait

We have just allowed police to shoot moving vehicles. After some guys decided to plow them in to crowds.

But our cops carry guns and our shootings in general is pretty low.

 

[Steve]

well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed. as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police. to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic. The fix is MORE training. Required weekly training. Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...

Should clarify, I think the campaign is realistic, but only if cops get on board and internally commit to endorsing the reforms. Otherwise, you're right. It will go no where. Said another way, statistically, each one of the 8 recommendation is demonstrated to be effective. They are shown to be realistic. But as I said before, not if cops don't get with the program.

Overall, there's an issue with the balance of power here. A manager cannot be sexually harassed by a subordinate because there is an inherent power dynamic. The manager holds the cards, not the employee. In the same way, cops hold all the cards. This power dynamic, as with sexual harassment cases, creates an environment in which cops who are inclined to misbehave can do so with relative impunity because they control the situation AND they control the narrative.

I'll say again, I agree that cops by and large need training, just not MA training. Sure, MA training would be helpful... it's just won't hit the critical training need. Soft sills can only really be developed over time with consistent coaching by people who are themselves adept at the skills. Simply put, they can be improved, but only if that person is willing to learn and is in a culture where the behavior is expected by peers as well as management. So, step one is get rid of anyone not on board. Step two is train and coach the folks who are left.

 

[Steve]

We have just allowed police to shoot moving vehicles. After some guys decided to plow them in to crowds.

But our cops carry guns and our shootings in general is pretty low.

Sure. I'm not creating a causal relationship between the two (other than the obvious one, where you can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun). Why do you think there are fewer shootings by cops in Australia?

 

[drop bear]

Should clarify, I think the campaign is realistic, but only if cops get on board and internally commit to endorsing the reforms. Otherwise, you're right. It will go no where. Said another way, statistically, each one of the 8 recommendation is demonstrated to be effective. They are shown to be realistic. But as I said before, not if cops don't get with the program.

Overall, there's an issue with the balance of power here. A manager cannot be sexually harassed by a subordinate because there is an inherent power dynamic. The manager holds the cards, not the employee. In the same way, cops hold all the cards. This power dynamic, as with sexual harassment cases, creates an environment in which cops who are inclined to misbehave can do so with relative impunity because they control the situation AND they control the narrative.

I'll say again, I agree that cops by and large need training, just not MA training. Sure, MA training would be helpful... it's just won't hit the critical training need. Soft sills can only really be developed over time with consistent coaching by people who are themselves adept at the skills. Simply put, they can be improved, but only if that person is willing to learn and is in a culture where the behavior is expected by peers as well as management. So, step one is get rid of anyone not on board. Step two is train and coach the folks who are left.

Bear in mind you are talking to a training guy. And that is going to be his jam.

It is a case of people do the things they can do. I wouldn't expect him to start having to pick apart union contract or inventing the new Tazer.

Otherwise here is the one I stumbled across. It is a little more two sided I think.
Campaign Zero

 

[drop bear]

Sure. I'm not creating a causal relationship between the two (other than the obvious one, where you can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun). Why do you think there are fewer shootings by cops in Australia?

Different system.

We had this issue and we had a royal comission look in to it.

Royal Commission into the New South Wales Police Service - Wikipedia

They did a great little dramatic miniseries on it called blue murder.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I question the need for most cops to carry guns

News flash this morning - Two police officers shot. No details yet, but here in the USA, this is not that rare. And this is against armed officers. If the LEO's don't carry guns, but the bad guys do, it doesn't take a genius to predict the slaughter that would occur. Don't know where you're from Steve, but it must be nice to walk the streets with no fear of violence. Most of us here live in a different reality, especially our LEO's that risk their lives with every contact made on the street.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Hapki-Concepts

Welcome to the group.

Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?

I couldn't give you a percentage of good vs bad LEO. I'm just not in that environment enough to determine that. I've always known people in law enforcement. I"m friends with more than one. Some I met before they got into law enforcement other's I met during and or after their time in law enforcement. My thought's are that good people tend to have similar qualities and bad people tend to have similar qualities.

I talked to a retired officer who talk about what he experienced while he was on the force and he stated there were more than just a few bad apples in his organization. My thoughts is that authority and power have a great potential to corrupt and I believe there are more people who are easy to corrupt than not. The only question left is what type of corruption are certain people most likely to bend towards and to what degree.

If I took a look at a religious place of worship, would I say that 99.995? Probably not, If I can't say that about a church or other place of worship then it would only be natural that I couldn't say the same about LEO. The one thing that I can probably say is there are more good people than bad. That includes organizations designed to serve the community. While some go into the field for power. Other's go into the field wanting to be able to protect those who can't protect others. Good officers will often have friends who speak of their protective characteristic as being something that was present in them from early youth.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.

That's why it's always good to be able to listen and hear people out. It helps to drain a lot of that emotion first reaction.

Most of us here live in a different reality, especially our LEO's that risk their lives with every contact made on the street.

The US is a different animal because of our gun culture.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The really sad thing is that there is a huge trust deficit between the police and significant portion of the public.

The bad cops screwed things up because of the wrong they did. The good cops screwed it up because they remain silent, and management screwed it of More are speaking out now which is good. The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.. Trust is a difficult thing to build and even harder to maintain. In business an image takes years to build trust with consumers. But it only take 1 day or a couple of bad actions to destroy all off that.

 

[dvcochran]

The bad cops screwed things up because of the wrong they did. The good cops screwed it up because they remain silent, and management screwed it of More are speaking out now which is good. The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.. Trust is a difficult thing to build and even harder to maintain. In business an image takes years to build trust with consumers. But it only take 1 day or a couple of bad actions to destroy all off that.

In your eyes they were already wrong. It is evident in your words that you have been conditioned to believe this from birth.
It is this kind thinking and people who are being racist. I am so very sick of the entitled mentality.
God help this country when we have to fight for our liberty's again with people like you. We have no chance against a substantial enemy.
You sir offend and disgust me.

 

[Hapki-Concepts]

You're right I'm wrong. I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken. To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum. Peace...

 

[CB Jones]

You're right I'm wrong. I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken. To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum. Peace...

No reason to leave.

 

[dvcochran]

You're right I'm wrong. I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken. To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum. Peace...

Nothing was directed at you. I have no ill will.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In your eyes they were already wrong. It is evident in your words that you have been conditioned to believe this from birth.
It is this kind thinking and people who are being racist. I am so very sick of the entitled mentality.
God help this country when we have to fight for our liberty's again with people like you. We have no chance against a substantial enemy.
You sir offend and disgust me.

I think you may have responded to the wrong post here.