Why should law enforcement officers train BJJ?

[CoachRonald]

Hi dears comrades,

Nowadays everybody seems to be aware of the importance of BJJ being part of the routine of training. There are many reasons to become adept, but in the case of military and law eforcement officers it seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become able to defend one self and reach the best preparedness as a training program enables. So here are some good reasons I would like to share with all of you guys that still hesitate.

Regards

Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel

 

[JR 137]

Hi dears comrades,

Nowadays everybody seems to be aware of the importance of BJJ being part of the routine of training. There are many reasons to become adept, but in the case of military and law eforcement officers it seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become able to defend one self and reach the best preparedness as a training program enables. So here are some good reasons I would like to share with all of you guys that still hesitate.

Regards

Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel

I didn’t watch the video. But to answer why should LEOs train in BJJ, it’s pretty simple. A LEOs objective is to get a resisting perpetrator into hand cuffs. That quite often involves putting them flat on their stomach with their hands behind their back. Punching and kicking probably isn’t the easiest way to achieve that.

I’d think BJJ, Judo and wrestling are probably well suited for that. Then again I’m not a LEO, so maybe I’m way off here.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nowadays everybody seems to be aware of the importance of BJJ being part of the routine of training.

It’s not part of mine.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, I tried to watch the video. It was pretty much unwatchable. What were you hoping to show us?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the law enforcement officers need? The take down (throwing) skill. The take down skill is not BJJ's strong point.

How much training time do average BJJ guys spend in stand up wrestling? IMO, not as much as wrestlers or Judo guys.

 

[CoachRonald]

What's the law enforcement officers need? The take down (throwing) skill. The take down skill is not BJJ's strong point.

How much training time do average BJJ guys spend in stand up wrestling? IMO, not as much as wrestlers or Judo guys.

Not necessarily. Indeed in the past it could be enough, but nowadays throwing a criminal to the ground might be even more dangerous for cops, if the enemy is a Jiu Jitsu practionner. If he falls in an ofensive guard might lose your arms, legs or be strangled. Altough Jiu Jitsu match is not defined by the amount of throwing techniques scores, it embraces all taking down tecniques that can be effectivelly aplied in a general enconter whose objetive is subjue the opponet. Basides this, there are different schools and trends in jj among which you can find jj athletes with higher proficiency in taking down techniques than wrestlers (1) (2) despite the reduced arsenal.
The circumstances of non-rules encounters is totally conected to BJJ atmosphere.The context of non-rules encounters finds the best paralel in BJJ whose atmosphere goes beyond the scores and variabilities of techniques.

(1)

(2)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not necessarily.

Do you agree that

- wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
- BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?

It's like to say that boxer has better punch than TKD guy has, but TKD guy has better kick than boxer has. It's not styles but how much training time that you put in. Many BJJ schools don't even train stand up grappling. All Judo and wrestling training start from stand up. Some BJJ school training start from knee down.

To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.

 

[JR 137]

Do you agree that

- wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
- BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?

It's like to say that boxer has better punch than TKD guy has, but TKD guy has better kick than boxer has. It's not styles but how much training time that you put in. Many BJJ schools don't even train stand up grappling. All Judo and wrestling training start from stand up. Some BJJ school training start from knee down.

To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.

That clip NEVER gets old.

 

[punisher73]

I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ. Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back. Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court. What does BJJ's submissions do? They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints. I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout. Now what are my tactical choices? I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail". Chokes? Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.

Based on my experience and what I have seen. The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them. The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.

 

[CoachRonald]

Do you agree that

- wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
- BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?

It's like to say that boxer has better punch than TKD guy has, but TKD guy has better kick than boxer has. It's not styles but how much training time that you put in. Many BJJ schools don't even train stand up grappling. All Judo and wrestling training start from stand up. Some BJJ school training start from knee down.

To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.

Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.

 

[dvcochran]

I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ. Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back. Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court. What does BJJ's submissions do? They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints. I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout. Now what are my tactical choices? I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail". Chokes? Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.

Based on my experience and what I have seen. The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them. The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.

I was an officer in the '80's and '90's so I understand thinks are a little different now. Even 30 years ago there was nothing Martial in the "ideal" LE confrontation and that was drilled into us in defensive training and legal/courtroom training. Standing takedowns and submissions were practiced the most, all ending with the assailant on their back. We were drilled to wait for backup when possible. Unfortunately, we live(d) in a small town and sometimes there was only one officer on duty. That changed the dynamic quite and bit and ,of course, the approach. It was a time before everything was live on video so that was seldom a concern. Still, my endgame was getting the cuffs on as quickly as possible, before any added mental escalation took place whenever possible. Leave them no room to consider whether you are in control or not. Standoffs are a very bad idea.

 

[oftheherd1]

Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.

I have heard a lot of martial artists say their art is the best. I can easily discount them all as I know mine is the best, being the most effective for everything, including law enforcement. BTW have you worked in law enforcement? If not, then I think you may just be parroting what someone else has said, and that person may also not have been LEO. Or maybe in a different country and/or culture.

I don't nor ever have studied BJJ, but it appears most BJJ practitioners wish to move to the ground as quickly as possible. That is not a place a LEO should want to be, especially if in a hostile environment with other potential assailants.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Coach Ronald. Nice to have you.

I'm in Law Enforcement. And I love BJJ. It's one of my favorite things ever, has been for a long time.

But I agree with Punisher 73. One hundred percent. I wish I could have said it as well.

 

[CoachRonald]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Coach Ronald. Nice to have you.

I'm in Law Enforcement. And I love BJJ. It's one of my favorite things ever, has been for a long time.

But I agree with Punisher 73. One hundred percent. I wish I could have said it as well.

Thanks buddy for the welcoming. I agree with comrade Punisher about the importance of having good skills in taking the opponent down as well as defeding from taking downs attack. Wrestling and Judo have good arsenal so that they are part of the method I use that develops them on Jiu Jitsu atmosphere that makes them more efective. The most modern hand to hand system American combatives is based on BJJ that embrace all grappling techniques that works in a chalanging atmosphere in which all styles are put under fire by having their techniques tested in their combat efectiveness. There a lot of methodological feilures in jiu jitsu schools, even the old schools, but the atmosphere is good to attach new fundamentals, so it's more flexible than other arts.

 

[CoachRonald]

I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ. Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back. Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court. What does BJJ's submissions do? They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints. I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout. Now what are my tactical choices? I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail". Chokes? Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.

Based on my experience and what I have seen. The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them. The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.

Hi Punisher73,
I understand this difficulty that you have reported us. Unfortunately nowadays the justice treats criminals as victims of society. However, on the other hand there is plenty of non-lethal and less harmful jiu-jitsu technique. To subdue the opponent without hurting him, we need to control the space and make the right gripe (1) which has been improved by the bjj and nowadays the are doing by Americans Combatives.
In terms of lethality, a suplex can lead the thieves to death or not, expends unnecessarily energy (2).

1-

2-

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The most modern hand to hand system American combatives is based on BJJ that embrace all grappling techniques that works in a chalanging atmosphere in which all styles are put under fire by having their techniques tested in their combat efectiveness.

This actually isnt true. A couple minutes ago, i created a style called KD combatives, which focuses around one kick, call the "defense kick", which looks like a side kick. We embrace it in a challenging atmosphere where the technique is put to the test. Still, i would recommend kempo, kenpo, sambo, judo, kali over it. Even though its more modern. Turns out that im crap at creating styles, and even if its true that its more modern, and tested in a challenging atmosphere, if everyone practices it then it only proves its effective against itself.

 

[CoachRonald]

I was an officer in the '80's and '90's so I understand thinks are a little different now. Even 30 years ago there was nothing Martial in the "ideal" LE confrontation and that was drilled into us in defensive training and legal/courtroom training. Standing takedowns and submissions were practiced the most, all ending with the assailant on their back. We were drilled to wait for backup when possible. Unfortunately, we live(d) in a small town and sometimes there was only one officer on duty. That changed the dynamic quite and bit and ,of course, the approach. It was a time before everything was live on video so that was seldom a concern. Still, my endgame was getting the cuffs on as quickly as possible, before any added mental escalation took place whenever possible. Leave them no room to consider whether you are in control or not. Standoffs are a very bad idea.

Nice experience buddy.

 

[CB Jones]

less harmful

Less Harmful??????

Nope...they got 2 choices...the easy way or the more harmful way!

 

[CoachRonald]

Less Harmful??????

Nope...they got 2 choices...the easy way or the more harmful way!

Hi CB Jones,

Except survival situations the duty usually requires to be moderated. That's the problem set for Punisher 73 related to the difficulty in choosing an appropriate technique.

 

[dvcochran]

Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.

I am pretty sure there were no guns, knives or other weapons in you ADCC turnaments?.