Do promotions matter?

[Bill Mattocks]

As a newbie, I'm a white belt, and pretty content with that. So maybe my point of view is skewed.

But I have noticed that in my dojo, I have one sensei who wants to make sure I get promoted. He's always telling me what I still need to do to get my first belt (for my dojo as an adult, it would be orange). I find that I'm interested in learning the material and the language skills and the kata, very much so, but I don't really care what color my belt is. As far as I'm concerned, I could be a white belt for the rest of my life - so what?

I can understand wanting to achieve rank if one wants to teach. You have to have a particular dan to be considered sensei. I get that. But I don't really want to teach. By the time I'll have anything worthwhile to teach in my discipline, I'll be ancient!

I can understand wanting to achieve rank in order to spar, when they match belt against belt within weight classes.

But otherwise, do promotions matter? Would you stop training if your dojo decided not to give promotions anymore? Oh, you'd train the same, and even test, perhaps, but no more belt advancements. Would you quit going? Would you find another dojo where belts were awarded? Is belt advancement important to you, and if so, why?

And I presume everyone is on the same wavelength here in terms of deserving promotion - I'm not talking about getting undeserved promotions, just getting rank in general.

Just curious, really. Perhaps I should be more desiring of advancing in rank? Is this a newbie trait?

 

[Sandstorm]

Just curious, really. Perhaps I should be more desiring of advancing in rank? Is this a newbie trait?

On the contrary, I think most beginners want to achieve rank asap. In my experience as a teacher, I see the urgency in some to move up the grades. I personally am of the mindset that rank is only as important as it is to you inside. I don't feel that rank is the be all and end all at all. I want to learn, evolve, experiment, understand etc etc. I love the arts and I could really care less what grade I hold. It's my experiences within the arts that matter to me.

 

[TKD'oh]

I'd say that your attitude is definately not a "newbie thing." On the contrary, most white belts are more concerned with promoting than learning the material.
Your sensei is probably trying to promote you so you don't get bored with the basics and quit.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'd say that your attitude is definately not a "newbie thing." On the contrary, most white belts are more concerned with promoting than learning the material.
Your sensei is probably trying to promote you so you don't get bored with the basics and quit.

Well, my 'main' sensei is, I'm told, a little insensitive to promotions. His two main students (also my sensei's) have been with him for 27 years. They tell us that they have to regularly remind him to test/promote this person or that person. It takes on average about 9 years to make black belt in my dojo, and about half the adult students are black belts, so most have been going for a very long time.

I don't see myself getting bored - on the contrary, I'm loving all that is happening. I like the history, the culture, the physical exercise and even the chance to mix it up in sparring. I have such a long way to go, but I'm content - I'm making progress and will get there.

Just the belt thing doesn't really seem to matter to me.

If that's unusual for a newbie, maybe it's because I'm an older newbie. What about people who have been doing it for a long time - still care about belts?

 

[TKD'oh]

It sounds like you have a very good mindset for the martial arts. Keep it up!

 

[Phoenix44]

This issue has been addressed in a variety of permutations. Here's my take on it:

Rank matters...or it doesn't.

Some schools don't use ranks. But once a school decides to use ranks or belt colors, the criteria should be applied fairly and evenly. If it takes 9 years to get a black belt, fine, but it shouldn't take Peter 3 years and Paul 9 years, unless there are clearly articulated standards that Paul just hasn't met. And in my opinion, that applies for adults as well as children. Because otherwise, rank is completely meaningless, and shouldn't be used.

If I had to guess, it's not so much that your instructor wants to see you wearing an orange piece of cloth, but that he wants to see you meeting whatever criteria there are for orange belt. Or he may feel that, in your case, you have met the criteria, and you are being overlooked, which isn't fair, and may prevent you from being taught the more complex material.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Depending upon the system, you may not be permitted to learn material until after you're of a specific belt level, so in that case, the promotions would be tied to your continued learning.

I won't get into my thoughts on testing fees and large quantities of belts, as that is actually a separate subject, but those can also be an incentive for a school to promote people.

Daniel

 

[Aikikitty]

On the contrary, I think most beginners want to achieve rank asap. In my experience as a teacher, I see the urgency in some to move up the grades. I personally am of the mindset that rank is only as important as it is to you inside. I don't feel that rank is the be all and end all at all. I want to learn, evolve, experiment, understand etc etc. I love the arts and I could really care less what grade I hold. It's my experiences within the arts that matter to me.

I agree with Sandstorm. For >most< beginners especially, achieving rank is exciting and can be a great motivation for students to actually practice their techniques outside of the school. I remember starting aikido and not knowing anything and feeling like I couldn't DO anything! Struggling to learn the basics and techniques well enough to "move up a level" encouraged me and my mom that we were actually "getting not-as-terrible-as-we-used-to-be".

When I first started aikido, I was very excited (and very nervous) about the idea of testing and getting up higher in the ranks. I got to officially test as "high" as 4th kyu (in 2003, I think) and then the head of our small association died and for awhile it was struggling under new leadership. My sensei is also one that doesn't care for testing, etc. so it was 6 years or so until my sensei shocked me by telling me I was going to test. In that time in between, I went a couple of years being disappointed and wondering if I'd ever get to test again (part of that was ego), to then not caring if I ever got the opportunity because I was still training and loving it. After all, if I had tested officially each year or so and got the belts/certificates and lost everything in a freak fire or flood, I'd still have the knowledge and experience all the same.

However, that being said, now that I'm still getting used to wearing a stiff new black belt, I feel renewed ambition to do the best I can to live up the rank my sensei believes I deserve. It was/is also VERY encouraging as well as humbling to be recognized for all the hard work and tears I've put in over the years. Passing my dan test was a huge milestone that 1) I thought I'd never achieve and 2) will never forget. But even if I never tested (or ever test again), that wouldn't really matter in the long run as I hadn't and wouldn't quit a school (especially one that has become family) over something like rank and testing.

I think you have a great mindset! Do it because you want to do it and are learning to love the art and not care about ranks. I'm sure there are a lot of older people who care greatly about rank for more reasons than just ego, but the older guys in my class and my sensei couldn't care less about their own rank.

Robyn :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This issue has been addressed in a variety of permutations. Here's my take on it:

Rank matters...or it doesn't.

Some schools don't use ranks. But once a school decides to use ranks or belt colors, the criteria should be applied fairly and evenly. If it takes 9 years to get a black belt, fine, but it shouldn't take Peter 3 years and Paul 9 years, unless there are clearly articulated standards that Paul just hasn't met. And in my opinion, that applies for adults as well as children. Because otherwise, rank is completely meaningless, and shouldn't be used.

If I had to guess, it's not so much that your instructor wants to see you wearing an orange piece of cloth, but that he wants to see you meeting whatever criteria there are for orange belt. Or he may feel that, in your case, you have met the criteria, and you are being overlooked, which isn't fair, and may prevent you from being taught the more complex material.

Ah, I see. In my case, my dojo is very small. We all get the same training, except when the very advanced black belts do sai or tonfa weapons forms. But we do everything else - even bo-bo kumite - together.

I haven't mastered the orange belt requirements yet. I need to be able to 'stumble through' (my sensei's words) sanchin and the first half of seisan, know my first 15 upper body exercises and my first 8 kicks, and know them in japanese. I'm working on the japanese part. Which sucks, considering I lived in Okinawa for a year, some 25 years ago. But I guess I'm close now.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Heck, I went about 6 years as 10th kyu. My instructors just kinda forgot to test me, even when pairing me up with higher ranks.

You have a great attitude Bill, so keep it up and just test when your instructors say you are ready!

 

[seasoned]

As a newbie, I'm a white belt, and pretty content with that. So maybe my point of view is skewed.

But I have noticed that in my dojo, I have one sensei who wants to make sure I get promoted. He's always telling me what I still need to do to get my first belt (for my dojo as an adult, it would be orange). I find that I'm interested in learning the material and the language skills and the kata, very much so, but I don't really care what color my belt is. As far as I'm concerned, I could be a white belt for the rest of my life - so what?

I can understand wanting to achieve rank if one wants to teach. You have to have a particular dan to be considered sensei. I get that. But I don't really want to teach. By the time I'll have anything worthwhile to teach in my discipline, I'll be ancient!

I can understand wanting to achieve rank in order to spar, when they match belt against belt within weight classes.

But otherwise, do promotions matter? Would you stop training if your dojo decided not to give promotions anymore? Oh, you'd train the same, and even test, perhaps, but no more belt advancements. Would you quit going? Would you find another dojo where belts were awarded? Is belt advancement important to you, and if so, why?

And I presume everyone is on the same wavelength here in terms of deserving promotion - I'm not talking about getting undeserved promotions, just getting rank in general.

Just curious, really. Perhaps I should be more desiring of advancing in rank? Is this a newbie trait?

Most newbie’s would say it is important, as well as most black belts over 4th degree would say it’s not that important, speaking of their own rank. For the most part I feel that the grading system is important as a gauge, if done properly. Grading should be done on proficiency of technique and knowledge of kata, and not based on time in grade. I have seen many students pushed through ranks because they could memorize better then other students, and I blame the Sensei for this. I know in the beginning it was not like this, then you knew it or you didn’t know it, and that was it. We live in a different era now, and I feel that some people learn better, in a more structured environment then others. If it is a garage DoJo then just train, but an established DoJo, I feel structure and testing will help the process to move along smoothly.

 

[Aefibird]

When I originally started martial arts over 15 years ago rank was important to me. I kept trying to tell myself it wasn't...but it was (especially when I was a beginner and desperately wanted to be something other than a white belt).

It was getting close to the time when I was due to take my Shodan. Due to certain circumstances I ended up not testing for several years. At first it bothered me and I felt that I really NEEDED to test to prove to myself that I could do it. As time went on the desire to test grew less and less until it had gone by the time I was finally able to test for Shodan.

Sod's law would have it that when I DID test for Shodan the vistiting chief examiner double graded me to Nidan (a decision I was mightily unhappy with, but that's by the by). I never skipped any rank when I cared about it and then suddenly I was double promoted when I could no longer care less!

Anyway, I started TKD and ended up skipping from 10th kup to 4th kup because of my previous training experience, again a decision that I was unhappy with. Rank had become very unimportant to me by that point, but I didn't want to make it seem like I was the newcomer and suddenly jumping miles ahead of those who had been there training week in, week out. I felt bad and pretty embarassed that I was a new starter and then suddenly after only a month or so I was lining up at the front of the class with the higher grades. I felt it cheapened the rank for those who were working their way slowly up the system. No one at that school said anything derogatory to me about skipping belts, the way I felt about it came from within.

Serious injury put me out of martial arts for a couple of years until I recently re-started. I joined a new TKD club and have started back at white belt and I'm the happiest I've been in my training for a long while.

 

[terryl965]

I waited 18 year 4 months and 12 days before recieving my 4th so to me a promotion means little what matters is the training. Rank is over glorified by too manypeople and skills set is on the back burner, so to me you are doing it the right way.

 

[grydth]

Individuals have to answer this question on their own. If you buy something from a belt factory that you aren't remotely qualified for, the answer's probably "no". If you work hard, have to sweat and bleed to get something from an instructor you respects - and who is conveying his respect for you - then probably "yes".

I got into the CMA before all the new Chrome Pig 3d degree badge stuff, and I don't regret missing those.... the knowledge and the training experience were quite enough, thank you.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Promotions have been use as a measurment....Do you remember been in school and went from 1st grade to 12 grade....

It would be difficult if they didn't use grades for you? off course a high school degree has many varibles of levels too! Same in martial arts.

If your Instructor had NO degrees or BLack belts? ...What would they be worth to you? same for Professors or teachers in any school?

"HEY Doc? do you have a promotions from medical schools? "NOPE? on the job training only....and you are my first one too! Great help me?

Promotions in martial arts? ..NO rules..only what your school decides the ranks/promotions...

Today "ton's" of people wearing black belts....how many really can defend themselves on the streets...against anyone? ....here ranks mean nothing...

Promotions is just a measurement use by most Teachers, and many students feel it is important measurement for themselves...or progress reports.

Only you? ...will know of your true prgress..


Aloha,

 

[Aniela13]

For me, promotions matter insofar as they determine my ability to learn new material. Since starting my second form of MA, I have begun to place more value on hours spent working than years spent learning. For example, I am getting ready to test for another rank next week, even though I tested for my current rank 3 weeks to the day before my next test--but I have spent about 10 hours each week training in the school and at least 3 hours each week outside the school. (As a matter of clarification, I am pushing myself and my instructors are pushing me because, as of my graduation next spring, I truly do not know if I'll be close enough to my school to continue my training--if the situation were different, I would probably not push myself quite so hard to progress so quickly out of respect to my instructors, though they do not feel disrespected since we've discussed this. But I digress....)

Do I look forward to receiving my new rank? Of course, but not because of the color that will be associated with me--I look forward to the new material I will be permitted to learn, the new weapon I will be taught, and the opportunity for the skills I have been learning to this point to be improved and bettered. I love the course of learning in my school...every class when I get to learn something new or work with someone to improve something I've already learned, I fall even more in love with my art. Promotions are nice, but they are a means to an end--only after the promotion can I learn new things, and be challenged to further improve the old.

~Ani

 

[searcher]

Obviously it is going to vary from person to person.

What we must all remember, is that the belts were intended to be a motivator for students. To give the individual something to shoot for. If you don't need that motivation, then it is of only one use, to let the instructor have a good idea of what you know. Nothing worse then learning the same material over and over until the student burns out.

 

[Spartan 117]

I think you have a very good attitude towards martial arts. Actually, most white belts I've seen are eager to test for their next gup, so it's not likely a newbie trait.

You want to learn,and you like what you do a lot.Maybe your sensei noticed it, and whishes to encourage you so you can progress more in the art.

Keep training, and let nothing disturb you from enjoying karate the way you do.

 

[bluekey88]

The question of promotion is so complicated. So much depends on who your are and where you are at in your marital arts journey. Also, the culture of the school you attend has a lot to do with it.

When I was young, I was sooo into promotion. it wasn't a good thing. Nowadays, while I don't seek promotion avidly, I enjoy it when it happens. I'm not full of my ranks, but I do enjoy the concrete reminder of how I am progressing.

then, I currently study TKD and Bujinkan Taijutsu. At the TKD school, rank is important. It determines what material you learn. In order to learn new stuff, I have to progress in rank. So, while I personally don;t care where I am at as far as rank, I want to promote so I don't stagnate in my training. Conversely, the taijustu group i study with is the exact opposite. Everyone study's everything...there's nto real set curriculum. Rank is decided by the Shidoshi who runs the group and tends to get announced off the cuff whenever he feels a student is perfomring at a given rank.

I'm confortable with both systems.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Aiki Lee]

In the Jizaikan rank signifies that a person holds a particular skill set and is comfortable at certain things. To us the rank is a marker something to signify a particular lesson or skill we want to learn. Like yellow belts move on to white once they have learned the 8 Aiki Kihontechniques, at yellow belt they still practice those techniques but with a focus on keeping themselves balanced. At orange it is about not muscling through the technique. Purple teaches about the opponents center of balance, and blue is about being able to draw in your attacker. We continue to practice all these things, they build off each other so it's not like we just drop it once we move on.

So I don't think you should rush towards any belt, and it's good that you want to keep on working what you are working at, but don't let that hold you back from progressing in your art. At least that's how i see it.