Lost Techniques

[detroitfan102]

Currently, I'm learning Long Form 4, which includes a technique called Darting Leaves that apparently is no longer used in the system. I was wondering if anybody had a complete list of "lost techniques".

 

[dubljay]

As far as I know Darting Leaves was never a technique per se. If you look at the first technique of Long 4, Protecting Fans, when you execute the eye poke and kick it is with the opposite hand and foot (left poke right kick). In Darting Leaves it is same hand same foot (left poke left kick). I belive this is more of a catagory competion than technique.

Like I said this is just as far as I know... I could be completely wrong.


-Josh

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Currently, I'm learning Long Form 4, which includes a technique called Darting Leaves that apparently is no longer used in the system. I was wondering if anybody had a complete list of "lost techniques".

Darting Leaves is not really a "lost technique" it's a category completion technique for the form. In the previous technique 'Protecting Fans' you did a kick + eye poke with opposite hand opposite foot. In "Darting Leaves" you do a kick + eye poke with the same hand and foot.

But a solid list of "lost techniques" could go:

1. Aggressive Twins -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
2. Spreading Branch -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
3. Intellectual Departure -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
4. Broken Leaves -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
5. Spiraling Ram -- 'What if' to the other ram techniques
6. Darting Leaves -- Form 4 -- Category completion technique
7. Pinning Wing -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
8. Controlling Wing -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
9. Hopping Crane -- Form 5 -- Category completion technique
10. Deflecting the Rod -- Form 6 first side of Twisted Rod is called this at times
11. Unfurling lance -- Form 6 -- Unfurling Crane modified for a knife
12. Clipping the Lance -- Form 6 -- Clipping the Storm modified for a knife.

 

[dubljay]

Very nice list sir. Ahh good ol' Hopping Crane... Long 5 gives me fits to begin with but that part really shows my lack of coordination. Just a question... where is the "what if" for the ram techniques presented?

 

[KenpoDave]

Currently, I'm learning Long Form 4, which includes a technique called Darting Leaves that apparently is no longer used in the system. I was wondering if anybody had a complete list of "lost techniques".

Best I can tell from the responses, the technique in question is known as Praying Mantis in Tracy's, and is certainly not lost. As a matter of fact, ALL of the techniques in Long #4 are in our green belt curriculum.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Very nice list sir. Ahh good ol' Hopping Crane... Long 5 gives me fits to begin with but that part really shows my lack of coordination. Just a question... where is the "what if" for the ram techniques presented?

'Spiraling Ram' was taught to me as a category completion/what if to the ram techniques that links into Back Breaker. basically in the rams the opponent is head towards us face down and we try to put them down that way in Charging ram, keep them standing in broken ram, turn them counter-clockwise face up in Intercepting the ram (some schools), so Spiraling Ram is taught as a clockwise turn face up that leads into either Back Breaker or the end of piercing lance.

 

[dubljay]

'Spiraling Ram' was taught to me as a category completion/what if to the ram techniques that links into Back Breaker. basically in the rams the opponent is head towards us face down and we try to put them down that way in Charging ram, keep them standing in broken ram, turn them counter-clockwise face up in Intercepting the ram (some schools), so Spiraling Ram is taught as a clockwise turn face up that leads into either Back Breaker or the end of piercing lance.

Ohhhhhh... I have something new to play with. Thank you very much sir.

 

[KenpoEMT]

I was wondering if anybody had a complete list of "lost techniques".

Here's something from Lamkin's site called Manual of the Lost Techniques:
http://www.elite-fighters.com/store/products/lost_manual.htm
I've never seen this manual, so I can't comment on it.

I've got some of their instructional material that I use in a supplement to my training. IMO everything they offer is pretty good as far as quality of information is concerned.

Good luck!

 

[Flying Crane]

I think what you are referring to as "lost techniques" are simply techniques that existed in the original Kenpo that Ed Parker was teaching in the 1950s and early 1960s. The Tracy lineage has kept all of these techniques, while Ed Parker eliminated some and changed others in the process of creating his American Kenpo. The Katas were created using these techniques, but apparently Mr. Parker never modified the katas to reflect the changes that he made in the technique curriculum.

Tracys has 250 techniques, plus many variations, thru First Degree Black Belt, and 381 total, plus variations, thru Fifth Degree Black Belt, which is the complete list. According to Tracys, if you count up all the formal variations, the total is a full 600, but I have never verified that count myself.

The breakdown is as follows: 10 techniques for Yellow belt; 30 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd Brown, 2nd Brown, 1st Brown, and 1st thru 4th Black. Fifth Black has 41, most of which are actually additional variations to existing techniques.

I believe Yellow belt was a later addition to the program. Not everyone includes this in their curriculum, and it probably depends on when the instructor received their training.

Originally, when the Tracys were students of Mr. Parker, the techniques did not have names and were taught in whatever random order Mr. Parker felt inclined. The Tracy's created names for the techniques, and organized them into the order in which they are now taught in their curriculum. Mr. Parker used these names for a while, until making his modifications for American Kenpo, where many of the names were changed.

Hope this helps.

Michael

 

[Seabrook]

I would argue that any "missing" techniques in EPAK aren't really missing just because they are not formally required for testing purposes.

I know this may open up a can of worms, but the difference that I see behind Parker's Kenpo and Tracy's Kenpo is that the former is based more on logical principles. Also, I don't count a,b,c,d, and e version as seen in Tracy's Kenpo as 5 different techniques but one. We, in EPAK, would simply call that "what-if's" of the ideal phase techniques.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Flying Crane]

I would argue that any "missing" techniques in EPAK aren't really missing just because they are not formally required for testing purposes.

I know this may open up a can of worms, but the difference that I see behind Parker's Kenpo and Tracy's Kenpo is that the former is based more on logical principles. Also, I don't count a,b,c,d, and e version as seen in Tracy's Kenpo as 5 different techniques but one. We, in EPAK, would simply call that "what-if's" of the ideal phase techniques.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

I think you have some good points there. The variations get to be tedious, and often, in my opinion, are unneccesary. I am simply relaying how the Tracys count things, not making a statement about what is better.

The Tracys simply felt it was better to keep all the original stuff as they learned it, and Parker decided to make changes for what he felt was the better. This was one of the reasons for the Tracy's split from Mr. Parker. I don't see it as a value judgement about which is better, simply an observation of what is different. But I do think it is an answer to what some people may see as "missing techniques". They are only "missing" from American Kenpo because Mr. Parker felt there was no reason to keep them. In a similar way, Tae Kwon Do Kata are "missing" from Kenpo because nobody felt the need to incorporate them. They still exist, people practice them, but they are not part of American Kenpo.

Michael

 

[Kenpoist]

I remember techniques like Four Fists and Hammerlock (circa 1988) that I haven't seen in recent years.

 

[Flying Crane]

I remember techniques like Four Fists and Hammerlock (circa 1988) that I haven't seen in recent years.

Four Fists I know, but I don't remember Hammerlock. I do remember Reverse Hammerlock...

 

[DutchKenpo]

Hello,

I have also heard of ducking dragon and persuing panther from the short form two.
Is there also a complete explanation on the above mentioned "lost techniques" because I really like to know.

I know of smart or intellectual departure, btw great technique.

grtz, Bob Hessel

 

[Flying Crane]

Hello,

I have also heard of ducking dragon and persuing panther from the short form two.
Is there also a complete explanation on the above mentioned "lost techniques" because I really like to know.

I know of smart or intellectual departure, btw great technique.

grtz, Bob Hessel

For starters, see my post dated 09/22/05 in this thread. Beyond that, what specific questions do you have?

You can go to Tracy's website where they list the names of all the techniques in each belt. They don't include a description, but it is a start...

 

[Doc]

I would argue that any "missing" techniques in EPAK aren't really missing just because they are not formally required for testing purposes.

I know this may open up a can of worms, but the difference that I see behind Parker's Kenpo and Tracy's Kenpo is that the former is based more on logical principles. Also, I don't count a,b,c,d, and e version as seen in Tracy's Kenpo as 5 different techniques but one. We, in EPAK, would simply call that "what-if's" of the ideal phase techniques.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

In my opinion you are correct sir with the exception Mr. Parker relied more on "concepts" to define his popular arts.

 

[Doc]

Originally, when the Tracys were students of Mr. Parker, the techniques did not have names and were taught in whatever random order Mr. Parker felt inclined. The Tracy's created names for the techniques, and organized them into the order in which they are now taught in their curriculum. Mr. Parker used these names for a while, until making his modifications for American Kenpo, where many of the names were changed.
Michael

I'm sorry sir, but the names of the techniques were created by Mr. Parker as per the tradition when he switched to the Chinese lineage under Ark Yuey Wong. The Tracy's took some of the names with them, changed some, and created others. Ultimately they changed just about everything for legal and personal reasons. They often have stated on many websites their historical perspectives after Mr. Parker's passing that, at best, have been questionable.

 

[IWishToLearn]

When did Jim Tracy stop being part of Tracy's Karate and left it all to Al?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sorry sir, but the names of the techniques were created by Mr. Parker as per the tradition when he switched to the Chinese lineage under Ark Yuey Wong. The Tracy's took some of the names with them, changed some, and created others. Ultimately they changed just about everything for legal and personal reasons.

I did not know that. Once again, I am making comments based on what I have read elsewhere. I am not surprised to hear others dispute some of these claims.

 

[Doc]

I did not know that. Once again, I am making comments based on what I have read elsewhere. I am not surprised to hear others dispute some of these claims.

They had almost three decades to have their say, but didn't. They have written a lot of things since Mr. Parker's passing that apparently weren't very important while Parker lived, but seem to be important for everyone to know now.