Lost Techniques

[Doc]

Doc,

You said that Grasp Of Death was changed? What was id the difference between the old technique and the one now being taught?

By the way why in the heck were all the techniques changed anyhow?

"Grasp of Death" was formally known as "The Pincher." The technique relied on "pinching" a nerve in the rear of the knee for the takedown. Definitely out of place for a white belt teachnique much like the others that were changed. The Pincher does at least provide a historical reference to the fact the the use of "nerves" and pressure points were defintiely within the realm of Ed Parker's thinking and knowledge coming from the Chinese. It just couldn't be taught, just like many other things in commercial kenpo because of the specific knowledge and labor intensive instruction.

 

[jfarnsworth]

When I teach "sprawling" it involves regaining your footing. In most techniques involving sprawling, it ends with the attacker on the ground and the defender regaining thier footing and finishing them off. An example:

CRASHING HAMMERS #2

DEFENSE: Direct low line tackle/Shoot attempt
STANCE: Natural
1) As opponent attempts to grab/tackle push drag reverse into a 45 degree right cat stance as you simultaneously execute double hammer fists down across opponent’s trapezius muscles (either side of neck) driving opponent to the ground
2) Execute a right side stomp kick to opponent’s head sandwiching it between your foot and the ground
3) Exit out with a right front reverse crossover

What style of Kenpo does this technique come from? No offense but when it comes down to saving your hide in a situation I can't imagine this can work.

 

[arnisador]

Cat stance against a tackle does seem like a questionable choice...even if you managed to get far enough back to avoid the tackle, or off-line, the front leg would be easy pickings for the grappler. He'd just grab it and go to some type of single-leg takedown.

 

[jdinca]

Cat stance against a tackle does seem like a questionable choice...even if you managed to get far enough back to avoid the tackle, or off-line, the front leg would be easy pickings for the grappler. He'd just grab it and go to some type of single-leg takedown.

It would all depend on the speed of your kick and the speed of the grappler. Cat stance wouldn't be my first choice here either.

 

[Michael Billings]

Interesting.....

Could someone please post the text book version of Spreading Branches?
I'm unfamiliar with it. I'm all for being effective, but I have no idea as to what you guys are talking about! LOL.

We still teach Aggressive Twins. I see the value of it. But, as Dr. Chapel noted, you must be able to anticipate the opponents attack for it to be effective. That's why we also teach sprawling techniques =) (Thank goodness I have a background in Jiu-Jitus eh!?)

In order for me to make appropriate comments regarding the technique, I would need to know specifics. =) I've been studying Kenpo for almost 7 years and have, up to this point, never heard of this technique. Please elaborate.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]17. SPREADING BRANCH (rear bear hug, arms pinned)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]1. With your feet together shift your right foot back to 8 o'clock (into a left forward bow) to buckle opponent's left knee (from inside out.) Simultaneously have your left hand pin both of your opponent's arms as you execute a right back hammer fist strike to opponent's groin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. With your opponent reacting to your groin strike, thus releasing his grasp, have both of your arms grab back of opponent's neck and deliver a right knee kick to opponent's face as both of your arms pull down, therefore increasing the force of your knee kick. (Possible back knuckle and neck break)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. As you plant your right foot forward toward 1:30 o'clock, have your left hand push down on opponent's head while your right arm circles counter clockwise.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. As you plant your right foot (employing Gravitational Marriage) and in coordination with the foot plant, conclude your counter clockwise motion by executing a right inward overhead elbow strike to upper spine of opponent.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]This is close to the one that was used. An erect posture is essential with a solid base being "found" if pushed when grabbed. It is found in lots of extensions later on, but is difficult for beginners for a number of reasons. I have it in my Purple Belt curriculum.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]http://kenpo-texas.com/techpurple.html[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]See technique #17[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]-Michael
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Doc]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]17. SPREADING BRANCH (rear bear hug, arms pinned)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]1. With your feet together shift your right foot back to 8 o'clock (into a left forward bow) to buckle opponent's left knee (from inside out.) Simultaneously have your left hand pin both of your opponent's arms as you execute a right back hammer fist strike to opponent's groin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. With your opponent reacting to your groin strike, thus releasing his grasp, have both of your arms grab back of opponent's neck and deliver a right knee kick to opponent's face as both of your arms pull down, therefore increasing the force of your knee kick. (Possible back knuckle and neck break)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. As you plant your right foot forward toward 1:30 o'clock, have your left hand push down on opponent's head while your right arm circles counter clockwise.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. As you plant your right foot (employing Gravitational Marriage) and in coordination with the foot plant, conclude your counter clockwise motion by executing a right inward overhead elbow strike to upper spine of opponent.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]This is close to the one that was used. An erect posture is essential with a solid base being "found" if pushed when grabbed. It is found in lots of extensions later on, but is difficult for beginners for a number of reasons. I have it in my Purple Belt curriculum.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]http://kenpo-texas.com/techpurple.html[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]See technique #17[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]-Michael
[/SIZE][/FONT]

In the immortal words of Bill Cosby, "Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!"

 

[jfarnsworth]

To be quite honest if someone were to actually "sprawl" during the intital move most likely one will be picking their teeth up off of the ground. On the way down during the sprawl said individual will have their chin on top of the attackers head trying to get in this double hammerfist strike :idunno: in? Executing a cat stance while trying to strike down with both hands can't have any type of power. Maybe one might have something but 2?

 

[Doc]

In the immortal words of Bill Cosby, "Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!"

Sorry this comment was put in the wrong sleep deprived position. It was meant to go under the technique description for the "sprawl."

 

[Michael Billings]

Doc, I laughed anyway, if only because I remember old, old Bill Cosby records, (yes those black round things that made music on a turntable). Loved em back in the late 60's Rrrrriiiiiggghhhtttt!!!!

-MB

 

[Doc]

Doc, I laughed anyway, if only because I remember old, old Bill Cosby records, (yes those black round things that made music on a turntable). Loved em back in the late 60's Rrrrriiiiiggghhhtttt!!!!

-MB

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigt! What's a cubit?

 

[celtic_crippler]

How long can you tread water? LOL

Anyway, thanks for posting the specifics. Sounds like a good technique.

A cat stance can be useful against an attempted shoot if accompanied by an effective maneuver. For instance:

DESCENDING HAMMERS

DEFENSE: Direct low line tackle/Shoot attempt
STANCE: Right Neutral Bow
1) As opponent attempts to grab/tackle push drag reverse into a 45 degree right cat stance as you simultaneously execute double hammer fists down across opponent’s trapezius muscles (either side of neck) driving opponent to the ground
2) Execute a right side stomp kick to opponent’s head sandwiching it between your foot and the ground
3) Cover out.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm sorry to say again that a double hammerfist to someone's traps aren't going to be enough to stop them. Have you ever tried to train with a grappler? When someone has it on their mind they are going to take you down by shooting in on your legs, chances are you are going down. That is just my opinion. Keep in mind as well, when someone who knows what they are doing attempts a takedown there's always an alternative when "possibly" blocked. For instance sweeping to the side, changing angles then driving straight in, trips, and other traps. Just a thought, grab a body and try these things.

You still didn't answer my question on what style kenpo it is you do.:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

How long can you tread water? LOL

DESCENDING HAMMERS

DEFENSE: Direct low line tackle/Shoot attempt
STANCE: Right Neutral Bow
1) As opponent attempts to grab/tackle push drag reverse into a 45 degree right cat stance ...

The thing here is that you still have your leg forward?????

 

[celtic_crippler]

It's not the double hammer fists that stop them...it's the stomp kick to the head. LOL The double hammer fists simply serve to redirect the attackers path and direct them face first onto the ground (not to mention it hurts). A simular principle is utilized when doing what grapplers call "sprawling."

This is not an actual EPAK technique. Know where it came from? Experience. I wrote it down after actually successfully using it against another student who was also a GA all-state high school wrestler (only difference is I didn't actually stomp his head in afterward, it just seemed like a natural follow up at the time.) He attempted a shoot and this is basically how I naturally reacted to it. =) True, it may not be effective for you. We're all different and what works for me may not necessarily work for you.

The footwork and positioning used in Kenpo can get complicated. Indeed, your right leg is still forward, but if you're familiar with the stance you know that in order to transition from a neutral bow stance into a cat stance you have to drag your leg BACK; in this case away from the attacker. You also create additional distance by executing a maneuver called a "Push drag reverse." Basically, you push off with the front leg moving towards 6:00. Couple that with the 45 degree cat stance and you can create what is called a "zone of sanctuary" where you are out of range of your attackers weapons (in this case their hands.)

I just thought I'd give you a legitimate example of how a cat stance can be used against a shoot. =) Of course, as I stated previously, it may not work for you or you may simply decide it is complete BS and that I'm completely insane for even suggesting it would work! LOL It won't hurt my feelings either way. =)

oh yes....in answer to your question: American Kenpo Karate. My organizations lineage stems from the late Jay T. Will. I would think my avatar would have given that away. ROFL.

Peace!

 

[jfarnsworth]

. I would think my avatar would have given that away. ROFL. Peace!

Anyone can claim whatever they want to. Yes I seen the avatar, yet I had to ask the question because I had never seen those two techniques in the curriculum. If you made them up, fine. I could care less. However my doubts still loom over the cat into downward double hammerfists. To each his own. I give you a tip of the hat for thinking of more varied techniques.

Also, I am familiar with the terms you are using in your above post. I'm not new to kenpo however I don't have as much experience as others.

My organizations lineage stems from the late Jay T. Will.

I thought his lineage came from the Tracy's?

 

[arnisador]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigt! What's a cubit?

[Bill Cosby's son cannot explain how he got his unexpected haircut:]
"Son...was your head with you all day today?"

 

[celtic_crippler]

I thought his lineage came from the Tracy's?

Unfortunately, I never had the honor of meeting Mr. Will, but according to our organizations president (a student of Mr. Will), he was one of SGM Parkers black belts. I believe that is also the way he's listed under the Kenpo family tree at kenponet. (Of course they could be wrong. After all they have me listed as one of Brint Berry's black belts when I was actually a student of Wade Wilbourn. Wade is one of Brint's black belts and Brint also signed my certificate, but it was Wade that promoted me. lol)

I'm a notetaker and usually have a pen and pad nearby during class or when practicing. Whenever I or another student discover something new or different worth keeping I write it down. Sometimes it's a new "technique." We don't implement it into the syllabus, but we'll sometimes use them for drills the whole class can do that's not limited to rank. The hard part with these is naming them. LOL. All the good names are taken! (as evidences by my previous posts...I discovered there was all ready a technique with the same name so changed it. DOH!) I'm going to start using more modern terms to name techniques I think. Perhaps names like "Natural Selection," "Devastating Punk Out," "Don't Gimme No Lip," or "Busting the Grill." ROFL.

 

[Doc]

It's not the double hammer fists that stop them...it's the stomp kick to the head. LOL The double hammer fists simply serve to redirect the attackers path and direct them face first onto the ground (not to mention it hurts). A simular principle is utilized when doing what grapplers call "sprawling."

This is not an actual EPAK technique. Know where it came from? Experience. I wrote it down after actually successfully using it against another student who was also a GA all-state high school wrestler (only difference is I didn't actually stomp his head in afterward, it just seemed like a natural follow up at the time.) He attempted a shoot and this is basically how I naturally reacted to it. =) True, it may not be effective for you. We're all different and what works for me may not necessarily work for you.

The footwork and positioning used in Kenpo can get complicated. Indeed, your right leg is still forward, but if you're familiar with the stance you know that in order to transition from a neutral bow stance into a cat stance you have to drag your leg BACK; in this case away from the attacker. You also create additional distance by executing a maneuver called a "Push drag reverse." Basically, you push off with the front leg moving towards 6:00. Couple that with the 45 degree cat stance and you can create what is called a "zone of sanctuary" where you are out of range of your attackers weapons (in this case their hands.)

I just thought I'd give you a legitimate example of how a cat stance can be used against a shoot.

"Riiiiiiiight! Am I on Candid Camera?"

 

[Kalicombat]

Jay T. Will was a blackbelt under Al Tracy. His association, or at least the one that he founded, teaches the Tracy curriculum, at least it did a few years ago. Celtic, what curriclum does the AKKO teach? Is it EPAK or Tracy's. Also, how many techniques per belt level?

Gary C.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Jay T. Will was a blackbelt under Al Tracy. His association, or at least the one that he founded, teaches the Tracy curriculum, at least it did a few years ago. Celtic, what curriclum does the AKKO teach? Is it EPAK or Tracy's. Also, how many techniques per belt level?

Gary C.

I don't have access to my syllabus at the moment (at work) but the number varies per level. All together we require about 150+ through 3rd degree black. Each belt level is divided into basic and advanced due to the amount of material required (basically 2 tests per belt level.) For basic level requirments pretty much revolve around basics, forms, and defining principles. The advanced level is mostly self-defense techniques and being able to show or explain the application of principles.

That's interesting about Jay T. Will being related to the Tracy's. I'll have to bring that up to my instructor. The president of the EKKS, Brint Berry, studied under Jay T. Will and was also under LTKKA at one time. I don't have specific details, but I do know that what we do is referred to as White Dragon Martial Science. Our syllabus is a culmination of knowledge obtained by Mr. Berry through his studies under those organizations, instructors, and military experience.

All the techniques and forms in EPAK are included in the syllabus to my understanding (Parker Forms 1-8, standard techniques, etc) but has been added to over the years to include things taught by Jay T. Will and the UKKA as well as some of Larry Tatum's techniques and some of Brint Berry's as well (we require forms called moving-sets developed by Mr. Berry for example.)

I hope that answers your question. =)