book set

Doc

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Seabrook said:
The Book Set is a Hung Gar Kung Fu set. Jimmy Woo taught the Panther Set to Ed Parker, only to be later modified by Parker to give it more of a Kenpo flavor. In Kenpo Karate 201: The Basics and Exercise Forms, Lee Wedlake (2002) clearly states that the Book Set was not a part of the American Kenpo curriculum. Parker dropped the Book Set from his general teaching.

Hope that helps.
Not really. Ed Parker was taught what would eventually become the "Book Set," by Ark Yuey Wong. It should be noted that the young Jimmy Woo was also frequently in Ark Wong's school as well. There were many influences and crossovers among teachers and students that help to fuel the confusion. I confirmed my memory talking with Grandmaster Douglas Wong (nephew of Ark Wong), last week on this issue.

When the Tracy's broke off, they initially took the Book Set with them as a part of their teaching. But they created their own similar Panther Set, with both existing simultaneously. Eventually the Panther Set supplanted the Book Set.

So you see it all depends on 'what' you learned, 'when' you learned it, and 'who' you learned it from. Some lineages within the same group are doing things different from another guy down the street wearing the same patch.

See my response to the Tracy's use of 'motion' kenpo.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30958&page=3
 

Doc

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donald said:
Greetings All,

I heard it was called Book Set because it was included in one of Mr.Parker's books, and therfore picked up the aka..
You are correct sir.
 

Doc

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bushidomartialarts said:
tracy's website has some pretty inexpensive videos and bookset is on two or three of 'em.
Be careful. Things don't always show up when you purchase them.
 

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Sam said:
I'm practicing this kata right now, and I've managed to confuse myself. One of my blackbelt friends wrote down the main points of the kata for me so I could practice, but he left out the softbow hammerfist jump-360 hammerfist, and the double hammerfist move directly after it...and after that I think its the left reverse punch right step back reverse punch left reverse punch as you step back up in a sq horse stance right reverse punch... But isnt it the whipping backfists after that? I've been practicing it wrong all week and I just noticed, ugh!

could someone unsort me here?

This is the rough outline I have; The bold is a reminder of the main thing, and anything under that is more specific. Writing them like this usually helps me a lot... forgive my lack of technical terminology... (bathroom dance... hehe. what is that technique CALLED?)
Book Set

Standing Hand Movements
Right Side: Inverted eye dart, pull up, tension palm, pull down, tension palm, willow leaf palm, pull down tension palm , eye dart.
Left Side: Inverted eye dart, pull up, tension palm, pull down, tension palm, willow leaf palm, pull down tension palm , eye dart.
Right hand reverse punch, roll over backfist.
Left hand reverse punch, roll over backfist.

Bathroom Dance

7 L punches

2 reverse punches/tension palms stepping forwards

2 reverse punches/tension palms stepping backwards

Right wrist grab technique (cold hands!)

Left/Right/Left upward block/inverted punches

3 cover all blocks while stepping back

4 tiger blocks
Right/Left/Right/Left, last one bring right foot forward into cat stance

Hands of Death
Left eye swipe, Right Eye swipe, Left eyeball/ear grab, Right eyeball/ear grab, right foot step forward and pull them into your chest. Bring rear (left) foot to forward left corner and throw the body.

Elbow Smash

Stupid Swoop/Double Punch
Bring left foot to upper left so you are in a regular stance after this move

Right kick while left punch, set down, right punch, left punch

Upward Block/inverted punch to front left, front right, turn left and PASS rear left corner to rear right corner, THEN rear left corner.

Upward Cross Block, Right Hand counter grab, right foot dancer step, break elbow with left hand.

3 cover all blocks while stepping back

4 whipping backfists

4 double hammerfists

Blocking the Sun
Right upward block, right inward block while left palming to the groin, left grab while right chop to the neck

[FONT=&quot]3 tiger claws right/left/right into bow[/FONT]
Interesting sir. Consider you are calling a Chinese Form a "kata" which is a purely Japanese Term. :)
 

Flying Crane

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Doc said:
Interesting sir. Consider you are calling a Chinese Form a "kata" which is a purely Japanese Term. :)

Um... not to nitpick Doc, but Sam is actually Samantha...
icon10.gif
 

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Doc said:
Interesting sir. Consider you are calling a Chinese Form a "kata" which is a purely Japanese Term. :)

Flying Crane (or anyone else knowledgeable of Tracy Kenpo)

Doesn't Tracy use "Kata" to refer to (all) forms?

I'm not picking a nit...just trying to get my bearings straight between our two flavors :)

Carol
 

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lady_kaur said:
Flying Crane (or anyone else knowledgeable of Tracy Kenpo)

Doesn't Tracy use "Kata" to refer to (all) forms?

I'm not picking a nit...just trying to get my bearings straight between our two flavors :)

Carol
This is the hybrid tradition I've spoken about. A Chinese Art using Japanese words? The same is done in what some say is the Ed Parker Lineage, even though Ed Parker personally removed all non English references for his "American Kenpo," AND his "Kenpo-Karate." (Two separate arts)

Many still use "Dan" rankings, and terms like "dojo," sensei, sifu, shihan, etc when they in fact do not belong in the Parker Lineage according to Parker himself. He literally did this when he left "Kenpo-Karate" in favor of "Chinese Kenpo" in the early sixties as a precursor to his untaught "American Kenpo."

I am not suggesting there is something wrong with choosing which tradition to follow, however these traditions can contradict each other and suggest a lack of knowledge of your own art when used inappropriately. Especially when interacting with those from the other styles they are 'borrowed' from.

Some have enough trouble maintaining credibility without having to explain to someone from another art, how you teach a Chinese based art with Japanese terms. It all adds to the big commercial joke of crap martial arts proliferating. Everyone isn't bad, but not knowing your own history doesn't help the credibility image ma'am.

See: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30958&page=3
 

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lady_kaur said:
Flying Crane (or anyone else knowledgeable of Tracy Kenpo)

Doesn't Tracy use "Kata" to refer to (all) forms?

I'm not picking a nit...just trying to get my bearings straight between our two flavors :)

Carol

to my knowledge, yes the Tracys use the term Kata, and the term is Japanese. The commonly accepted English equivalent would be "Form" or "Set". The Koreans have their own terms for the concept, Poomse and Hyung, tho I don't know what the difference is between the two. While I am sure the Chinese have their own term for it, at the moment it escapes me. In my experience, most practitioners of Chinese arts in the English speaking world use the English terms Form or Set.

Even tho I am from the Tracy lineage, my teachers tended to use the English terms. I personally have used them and the Japanese somewhat interchangeable, altho I tend to favor the English. I guess I never worried much about it, but I understand what Doc is saying about things getting mixed around and it can reach the point where one wonders if someone really knows what they are talking about.

It is my understanding that the Tracy Kenpo traces its lineage more directly to the Japanese and Okinawan roots, and they have kept more of the Japanese terms such as Dan for Blackbelt ranks. However, the art is taught here in the US and other non-Japanese speaking areas of the world. To me, this would justify using either the Japanese or English terms.

While my Kenpo training is from the Tracy lineage, I myself have never belonged to their organization, have never met them, nor had any kind of relationship with them. While one of my instructors has membership with them, my own ranking is only thru my instructors, and not on file with or acknowledged by the Tracys. This has never bothered me as I have not felt the need to seek validation from them or others. I have always been something of a Free Agent, if you will, and I have enjoyed this freedom to do what I wish with the material. This has also kept me somewhat removed from the inner workings of how they do things so I admit, I am not the best resource regarding their issues. I am always glad to help if I can, however.

Question for Doc: do you know if any Kenpo systems with roots connected to Mr. Parker are taught in Japan, Okinawa, Korea, China, or other places, particularly in Asia, that already have their own martial traditions? That would be interesting to know, if so how are they received by people in those parts of the world?
 

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Doc,

Understanding that EPAK is mostly of Chinese influence, aren't there also some Japanese traditions in EPAK, sir?

It was my impression that Mr. Chow had synthesized movements that he taught Mr. Parker, and not taught an art that was completely Chinese.

SGM Parker's creed defines Karate (twice) as "empty hands" and not "Chinese hands".

He also called his art "American Kenpo" and not "American Chuan-Fa"

There are a couple of stray Japanese terms, such as "kiai" and "ukii" that have made it in to...my school, anyway.

:idunno: Honestly not trying to pick a nit, sir. I'm just trying to make sense of what I've been learning so far.

Carol
 

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lady_kaur said:
Doc,

Understanding that EPAK is mostly of Chinese influence, aren't there also some Japanese traditions in EPAK, sir?
Well ma'am the answer to that is rather complicated. First because what is called EPAK really is EPKK. There have been no Japanese traditions in any of the Parker lineages since he removed them in the early sixties. Please see;
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30958&page=3
It was my impression that Mr. Chow had synthesized movements that he taught Mr. Parker, and not taught an art that was completely Chinese.
You are indeed correct. Although The Chinese Arts were a part of Chow's teachings, the islands were heavily influenced by the Okinawan's and their arts, along with the Japanese. Henry Okazaki and his Dan Zan Ryu Jiujitsu, and even Judo were quite prominent. But overwhelmingly Parker left the bulk of that limited perspective information behind when he switched to learning wholly from the Chinese.
SGM Parker's creed defines Karate (twice) as "empty hands" and not "Chinese hands".
One of the great misunderstandings of Kenpo is the insertion of "karate" in the creed. In Mr. Parker's first book titled, "Kenpo Karate" published in 1961 he inserted this creed. As he explained it to me, the creed was actually written without the word "karate." However it was decided that it was a good idea to show the relationship between the translation and the creed. So when the creed was put in the book, the word "karate" was inserted but it was doubled hyphenated to show that "empty hands" actually meant "karate." However "karate" was never supposed to be recited as a part of the creed. Parker dropped the word completely when he moved to Chinese Kenpo training. Ultimately as Parker moved to the business of marketing his product later, the word "karate" was attached to Kenpo again in his "Kenpo-Karate" and it became appropriate.

A similar situation existed with the patch. When Parker ordered the first batch of his new patch, he was still "Kenpo Karate," but when he dropped "karate," he was still stuck with the patch because he ordered thousands from Standard Swiss Embroidery on 46th and Vermont Avenue in Los Angeles. While he pondered the possibility of a new patch, he came back to the business again with "Kenpo Karate" so the patch became relevent again.
He also called his art "American Kenpo" and not "American Chuan-Fa"
Yes ma'am, but he never called it "American kenpo Karate." Students did that as he transitioned between his "American Kenpo" project and the business of Ed Parker's kenpo Karate.
There are a couple of stray Japanese terms, such as "kiai" and "ukii" that have made it in to...my school, anyway.
"Kiai" is the only non English term he accepted in his art once all foreign references were dropped. Everything else had an English equivalent.
:idunno: Honestly not trying to pick a nit, sir. I'm just trying to make sense of what I've been learning so far.
Me too! :)
 

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lady_kaur said:
SGM Parker's creed defines Karate (twice) as "empty hands" and not "Chinese hands".
However, it is a fact that the kanji used (pronounced "Kenpo Karate" in Japanese, but having a different pronunciation in Chinese) was not "fist law empty hands." It was "fist law Chinese hands."

I've confirmed it with two people from China (one very educated)...in fact, the more educated said that it literally was: "fist method chinese hands" but that he would translate as to "Chinese Gung Fu."

The character used by Japanese stylists for "empty" used to be the symbol that refers to the "t'ang" dynasty, both being pronounced "kara" in Japanese. I believe that Funakoshi mentions this change that took place in Japan in his book "Karate-do, my way of life." Prior to that, in Okinawa {which was where Funakoshi came from} it was called either "hand" {te} or "chinese hand(s)" {kara-te}.

Today we may think of Karate as an art that originated in Japan. From what I've read: it originated from China, was practiced since at least the 1600's in okinawa and introduced {by okinawans} into Japan in the early 1900's. And I'm certain that it was modified by practitioners along the way.

But Kenpo Karate, depending on which camp you care to believe, did not come via the Japanese route to the US.
 

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Ray said:
However, it is a fact that the kanji used (pronounced "Kenpo Karate" in Japanese, but having a different pronunciation in Chinese) was not "fist law empty hands." It was "fist law Chinese hands."

I've confirmed it with two people from China (one very educated)...in fact, the more educated said that it literally was: "fist method chinese hands" but that he would translate as to "Chinese Gung Fu."

The character used by Japanese stylists for "empty" used to be the symbol that refers to the "t'ang" dynasty, both being pronounced "kara" in Japanese. I believe that Funakoshi mentions this change that took place in Japan in his book "Karate-do, my way of life." Prior to that, in Okinawa {which was where Funakoshi came from} it was called either "hand" {te} or "chinese hand(s)" {kara-te}.

Today we may think of Karate as an art that originated in Japan. From what I've read: it originated from China, was practiced since at least the 1600's in okinawa and introduced {by okinawans} into Japan in the early 1900's. And I'm certain that it was modified by practitioners along the way.

But Kenpo Karate, depending on which camp you care to believe, did not come via the Japanese route to the US.
Very well said sir.
 

tigdra

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first of all does SAM have a question to be awnsered and has anyone awnsered it yet, I mean he did start the post.
 

tigdra

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Hey SAM the bathroom dance can be called (heal,toe opening to horse) took me some time but laughed when i got it
 
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Sam

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Thanks for your concern Tigdra, but I figured it out.

let then hijack the thread if they'd like, we can all learn something.

Edit: by the way, I'm a girl. (she, instead of he)
 
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