Long4/Staff set


Black Belt
Jan 12, 2002
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Lake County,Ohio
Part1 Has anyone practiced the Parker, and Tracy versions of this form? What are the minor/major differences? I've seen it executed on tape, and from what I recall it did'nt look that different. Part2 Is the staff set practised in the Parker system the same kata in the Tracy system? I know in the Tracy branch of kenpo, that there are at least 3 staff katas. Do any of the Parker system associations ascribe to any of the "old style" weapons forms?:asian:
Uh, Long 4 is NOT Staff Set.

I have learned a staff set (We're a Tracy offshoot) and have seen an AK practitioner do an almost identical form.

We don't have any further staff forms than the first staff set.

I'am very aware that staff set, and L4 are two different katas. If you will look carefully at my post. You may notice that they were prefixed as PART1 and PART2 . Meaning I had/have 2 seperate questions. The first is regarding L4, and whether the Parker system version was different than the Tracy form, and if so how. Secondly I was wondering if the staff set taught in Parker system kenpo. Is the same as the one titled staff set in the Tracy system? Just a friendly query stemming from my curiosity.
Thanks to all for any answers. :asian:
i have done both the staff set tracy's and the ak and there are very little differences except the tracys version 1 is ak,s on one side only and the tracy's 2 is the ak's but with little subtlties.as far as l4 there are alot of differences once you know the basic pattern but the angles are different and the applications are more sensible in the ak.
hope that helps you can't possibly list all the differences in a post
I don't mean to sound ungrateful for the responses so far, BUT... Does anyone else have an EDUCATED opinion? What are some of the major differences between the Parker, and Tracy versions of L4? Is the Tracy version what Mr.Parker taught originally? I have heard from various sources. That L4 is considered to be the centerpeice of American kenpo karate. Is this the case in the Tracy system as well? Is this the consensus in both camps? If so why? Or if not, why not? Are the staff forms taught through the Tracy branch, forms originally taught by Mr.Parker? If so, why were they dropped later? Again is the staff set taught in Parker system kenpo. The same form as taught in the Tracy system? I hope this is'nt too much? Just being inquisitive!!! Thanks to all for the assist.
Although I am not a student of American Kenpo, I am very familiar with the system, having studied it for some time in the past. I am a shodan in Tracy Kenpo, as well as studying Chen Taijiquan and Baguazhang.

Without just relying on memory, I took a look at a video I have of Mohamad Tabatabai performing Long 4 and I can tell you it is practically identical to the Tracy version. Actually I didnt see any difference, except we do our salutation and closing differently.

The only major difference I saw was the execution of techniques, and I think that was just Tabatabai, not American Kenpo in general. For example, techques were very small and high, i.e. Thundering Hammers, which is in Tracy and American Kenpo; when performed by Tabatabai, the strikes are small and the groin shot was at shoulder level! Mostly techniques looked like he was fighting someone at least 7 tall!

I am not sure about the staff forms. Tracys has a few, and the only American Kenpo one I have seen was on a black & white film from the 60s.

I am from the Tracy system, but I can tell you theyre many more similarities then differences between Tracys and American Kenpo.

Hope this helps.


The Kenpo Exchange
donald you do sound ungreatfull and for your info have done american kenpo for 19yrs and have a fourth black under frank trejo and i do the ak as per book 5. as i said before you can't possibly type the differences you have to experience the forms which i have and still do both by the way,it all depends how good the teacher showing you is and what deepth of knowledge he has.
I apologize for sounding ungrateful. My last post was directed at all who did or would respond to my query. I worded it as I did because I'am looking for specifics. Not necessarily a point by point disertation, but a little more specific none the less. I appreciate your years in the system, and congratulate you on your tenacity in rising to such a level as 4th black. In most systems that is an accomplishment, but even more so in American Kenpo.Because of the vast amount of material to be assimilated.
Again Sir, I apologize for any gaffe on my part.
By God's Grace,
Salute in Christ,
i will try to give you some insight into the material you are looking for but iam really busy right now as gou can atest to.as for info try angelo collado's kenpo site you can find it on kenponet.com
He's got a Kenpo camp with Doreen Cogliandro of IKKA fame from Boston and Ingmar Johansson from Sweden and Tim Hartman in about 3 weeks.

On top of that he not only teaches his students but he works full time and also makes knives with his uncle.

As well he is studying systema and other arts such as Modern Arnis, BJJ, and JKD.

You should try to get a private lesson with him. Some weeks it's near impossible.

But if you want Donald, I can try and punch him in the groin when he's not loking if you promise to pay my medical bills.
Sir although I do appreciate the "offer". I will have to decline at this time. I don't believe it would be cricket, but then again a rain check would be acceptable. We'll have to see how he treats me later. He has sounded a bit on the cranky side,L.O.L..
Thanks Again,
Today Jaybacca and I started shooting rough video drafts of a series of Kenpo training tapes. These are just rough copies that we started to see what we need in the way of angles, sound, lighting, and other stuff to show material such as techniques, sets, and forms of American Kenpo.

I went and tried for the groin shot anyway. So now I am in immense pain. Luckily it was after the video taping stopped so that my anguish will not be seen by the world.

You weren't the guy he was beating up in the video and those are just rough drafts.

Oh my aching body...
whats the problem you guys are having with long 4 and staff set?
Ronin Posted:
"whats the problem you guys are having with long 4 and staff set?"

It isn't that we have a problem with either form/set, but Donald posted a question requiring fairly in depth knowledge by an individual of the Tracy and Parker versions, and since very few people know both, this thread hasn't gone anywhere.


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