Re:Parker/Tracy linage

[donald]

To Whom It May Concern,
Just a general observation regarding the abovementioned caption. If you are a student/instructor of "Tracy's Kenpo". Would'nt you ultimately be linked to the "Parker" line? If the Tracy's were trained, and promoted by Mr.Parker this has to hold true. I know that eventually the 2 went their seperate ways, but that does'nt change the facts! The Tracy camp claimed for years that what they taught as kenpo, was what they were originally taught by Mr.Parker. Hence the claims of "traditional" kenpo. It seems to me that people tend to ignore these WELL documented considerations! Some even seem to go out of their way to try, and discredit the opposing camps. When in reality if you attempt to discredit Mr.Parker's skill etc.. You are in effect discrediting YOUR system. On the other hand if you attempt to discredit the Tracy camp. You are again discrediting your own system. Most may try to deny that the 2 systems bear more resemblences than differences. In reality you can not... Although they DO have theoretical, and applicational differences. They come from the same root!!! Are there any who can, or would refute these facts? Lets hear it!!! :asian:

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

I am not sure where you are getting your info, but as I have been involved with the martial arts for over seventeen years and been with the Tracy system for at great deal of that time, so I can give my opinion.

The Tracy brother’s, Jim and Al, have always traced their direct lineage back to Mr. Parker. Always. The ongoing debate has been concerning the linage before Mr. Parker, i.e. Chow, Mitose, etc…

It wasn’t the 2; it was three (Al & Jim) that went separate ways. Many have disputed the black belt claims of the Tracy brothers, but they are listed in Mr. Parkers Family Tree (Certificates dated January 7, 1962), Al Tracy was on Mr. Parker’s demo team and did all the breaking, etc…

The Tracy brothers wanted to continue teaching the KKAA curriculum, Mr. Parker wanted the IKKA.

Al Tracy has said nothing but praise about Mr. Parkers martial arts capability, and everything I have heard from him has been pay tribute to what an amazing martial artist Mr. Parker was.

I have never understood why the American Kenpo camps have held so much animosity towards Tracy Kenpoist. I understand most of the grief comes from an old website by another Tracy brother, but that doesn’t reflect all the Kenpoist in the Tracy Kenpo organization!

When I moved to a city that didn’t have any Tracy schools I studied at an American studio for some time. I fit-in perfectly well, had no problems at all and found the techniques and forms practically identical. Most students where amazed as they thought they were entirely different systems, they didn’t realize how closely related we are.

You may not, for whatever reasons you have, to consider Tracy Kenpo a sister/brother system of American Kenpo, but Tracy’s is a Very close relative.

Sincerely,
Sanxiawuyi
The Kenpo Exchange

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

"I understand most of the grief comes from an old website by another Tracy brother, but that doesn’t reflect all the Kenpoist in the Tracy Kenpo organization!"

Uh, that "old website" was the official Tracy page. And based off of the #@R@$ that was on it, any American Kenpoist would be justified in being pissed off. There was the "realignment" of Tracy kenpo through Bruce Juchnik to have an offical Mitose link, the "Parker used kenpo as a Morman recruitment tool," the "Tracy's invent the color belt system," and the "where did Ed Parker get his black belt page." I understand that these pages were blamed on Will Tracy, and are now history, but that they were posted on the official page (for years) places the blame squarely on both involved Tracy brothers.

Incidentally, I don't believe that the web page was the instigation of bad feelings between the two systems. The two systems shared a more intense rivalry because of the similarity and their competition for students could only drive a wedge between the two systems. Each system had to say why they were better than the other.

I hate politics.

Lamont

 

[GouRonin]

I have a tracy friend I still tease about the tracy sex cult.

But really, who cares?

Over the long run, as long as you are happy with your art the rest can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it up their @ss.

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Blindside
I hate politics.

Lamont

I thought you said in an earlier post that your linage went through the Tracy's?! Or is it you just don't agree ith Wilbur Tracy?

Are you still with the Tracy Org.?

 

[Blindside]

Hi Scott,

The school I study and teach at isn't a part of the Tracy organization, and hasn't been since its founding some 27 years ago. My instructor was promoted to 4th Black under Chris Trujillo and Al Tracy.

Just because my lineage goes back through the Tracy's doesn't mean I agree with everything that they have done. I have been impressed with what Mr. (Al) Tracy has done in the past couple of years with the GOEs.

"Or is it you just don't agree with Wilbur Tracy?"

I can't even begin to talk about how many things I disagree with Will Tracy about (thinking about the sex cult here), and if that old website was his opinions on kenpo, then I disagree with him there also.

Lamont

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Blindside
The school I study and teach at isn't a part of the Tracy organization, and hasn't been since its founding some 27 years ago. My instructor was promoted to 4th Black under Chris Trujillo and Al Tracy.

Hey Lamont,

What organization, if any, are you with now? What curriculum are teaching? Do you use Tracy Tech’s as a base, or American (terminology)?

Sorry for all the questions, just curious.
:asian:

 

[Blindside]

Hi Scott,

We use a very similar curriculum as to what was used by Chris Trujillo when he taught my instructor. This was already different than the original Tracy technique requirements. Most of the variations have been dropped, except for where they show true difference in the tech. The nomenclature is still based off of the Tracy lineage. We have had alot of input of Parker's later concepts from one of our instructors who was an AK black belt student under Paul Mills. We don't use alot of AK terminology, except for some of the big one's (Marriage with Gravity, etc.)

Some techniques have been modified to make them work better. Forms are pretty much standard, but we still have Tiger and Crane, Mass Attack, and bookset. (It sounds like our Tiger and Crane is an older variation to what is currently taught. In our T&C there are two series of jump spinning outward inward crescent kicks that apparently used to be in the Tracy version, but has since been swapped out.) Our Long 5, short 5, and short 4 are from the American Kenpo systems. I think we now have two Long 6's, one from each system. (Our head instructor is also studying under an AK instructor in Salt Lake City.)

We are not affiliated with any organization, just one of those many independents making our way in this world.

No worries about the questions.

Lamont

 

[vincefuess]

The Tracy/ Parker BS has gone on for a long time, and it is really nothing more than individual immaturities that keep it alive. Both camps have turned out incredible martial artists.

I am a Parker Kenpo practitioner. I know a great many Tracy Kenpo practitioners. I may have my own personal disagreements with the way the tracys promoted their art for awhile there, and they hurt a good many people in the process. We all make mistakes. Sometimes we make big ones.

I personally find all of the "lineage" claims to be a bunch of BS- but who cares? If Al and Jim get their rocks off claiming to be the new generation of the Kosho-Ryu and tell everybody that their modern-day roots are 300 years deep that is their business. Where the rubber meets the road is DOES THE SYSTEM WORK? YES it does. Does it work any better than Parkers or anyone else's? NO. It all comes down to you the individual- for YOU are the one studying Kenpo for YOUR own reasons.

Either system has what you are looking for, if you are "Kenpo inclined" as I call it. They are both very complete systems, and it would take a lifetime commitment to master either one. We all have one head (not counting the purple helmet), two arms and two legs- there is only so much you can do with them.

I no longer waste time with the debate, I choose to absorb what is offered.

Vince

 

[donald]

[Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi I am not sure where you are getting your info, but as I have been involved with the martial arts for over seventeen years and been with the Tracy system for at great deal of that time, so I can give my opinion.




Sir,
Did you have a problem with my information? What portion? What I stated as fact, is fact! Who of the Tracy's left when to where is'nt a large part of the equation. The facts as I know them to be are in my original post. I agree that there seems to be more resemblances than differences between I.K.K.A. kenpo, and Tracy kenpo. That was the primary point of my post. Which was directed for the most part towards those who continue to shout about being tied to Tracy as opposed to Parker. If they knew their facts. They would close their mouths, and train...
Salute in Christ:asian:

 

[vincefuess]

Well, it seems to me we are on the same page! I was speaking strictly in reference to the aspect of training in either Parker or Tracy Kenpo.

 

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by donald
Sir,
Did you have a problem with my information? What portion?

I am so sorry. I just re-read your original post and I must have read it wrong the first time. We are in agreement on that topic. I responded to hastily and with heavy eyelids. Just goes to show that I shouldn’t open my mouth until I have paused and thought.

My apologize again
:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by vincefuess
Well, it seems to me we are on the same page! I was speaking strictly in reference to the aspect of training in either Parker or Tracy Kenpo.

I'am trying to understand this. I thought the better system would be based on the abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself! One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that kenpo is based on the study of creative motion. On this basis would make all kenpo similar, yet different in creative methodologies. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Hi Chiduce,

You stated............
"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... dont you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS
system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracys
modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system.
After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills,
advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification.
He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and
the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one
who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

You went on to state.................

"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that
kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon
LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner.
:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Hi Chiduce,

You stated............
"I thought the better system would be based on the
abilities of the practitioner rather than the style itself!"

Well, the style doesn't make the man, the man makes the style...... however if you are comparing 2 individuals that study different systems....... then you are comparing apples and tangerines.

While it is true that Al Tracy studied and gained his black belt at the time under the guidance of ED Parker...... he left with what ever knowledge he gained "OF THAT TIME PERIOD". In the last 25
years of Ed Parker's Life ...... dont you think he made several adjustments and advances to HIS
system?!! Oh course he did, NOW was Al Tracy involved in these developments........ Answer ...
NO he was not.

Suffice to say that while the Tracy System is an Ed Parker break~away system with Tracys
modifications.. It certainly is "NOT" I repeat "IS NOT" close to what we have today in the system.
After all we have had 25 good years of adjustments to the system and many new insights, drills,
advanced technique applications and variable expansions of all sorts on all levels.

Al Tracy has done a wonderful job of maintaining what he had 40 years ago with little modification.
He also should be credited with the expansion movement of the Kenpo System throughout the US and
the several portions of the World. This does not however mean that he should be credited as one
who is knowledgeable on the Principles and Concepts and other invaluable material found in the Architecture of the American Kenpo System of Today.

You went on to state.................

"One should be no better than the other since both are of the same lineage and the assumption that
kenpo is based on the study of creative motion."

Yes, the lineage to a point - specifically when the separation happened..... at that point they were more or less of the same mindset.... but as I have stated the Buck Stops here!! Tracy is missing an important 25 years of advanced material that Ed Parker has developed.

No Kenpo is not based on the study of creative motion....... what is that? Kenpo is based upon
LOGIC. It is the analytical study of motion that is the key as well as the individuals commitment to what is available to him and his personal application of said material.

If you take a putz and put him in the "BEST" system in the world you still have a Great Putz!

If you take a putz and put him in the "WORST" system in the world you still have an Awful Putz!

You take a hard working person that digs and studies, researches and trains guided by a good
instructor and armed with a complete system..... you have a great practitioner.
:asian:

Sir to my knowledge, Logic is an ever changing concept of what is accepted as workable in any infinite time variable. In the study of the science of motion, this logic is the creative motion studies themselves. This is true for all motion, (molecular, liquid, and solid). Thus, any analytical analogy of motion, (in this case physical) is still based on the physical bio-molecuar content or(the individual/person), which includes the latter three combined. Since motion involves work, this work is analysed as potential in it's kinetic and kinematic mobilities. Therefore, Logic or Analytical Logic in physical motion is infinitely creative! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Goldendragon7]

I'll vote for that!

:asian:

 

[Dave Simmons]

Although I agree with Dennis on the "differences" now between the Parker system and the Tracy system. However I feel that Tracy's System is also different now. Although Al doesn't openly admit it, he knows that some of his Black Belts have changed techniques, improved them and "modernized" them. The same goes with what is taught and when... Al himself has changed or modified certain areas of his system!

Of course, I know there are some Tracy folks out there who would not change anything without Al's approval. However there are those like me that have been encouraged to expand their Kenpo knowledge.

We all agree, I believe, as long as Kenpo is practiced and taught it will evolve and always improve. No matter if its SGM Parker or AL Tracy's advocates.

Regards,

Dave Simmons:soapbox:
www.mnkenpo.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Dave,

You are one of the few that have the courage and intelligence to admit that. We all know what happened and now the Tracy folks little by little are learning more of the factual details regarding the "Art" and really want to learn anything that will enhance what they already have invested much blood, sweat and tears in. The political reasons, or for that matter ANY reasons for the separation take a back seat. The Tracy folks must put aside differences and the Parker folks must do the same so that both can share experiences and examine the Art factors (curriculum advancements, drills, exercises etc.) so as to move forward.

History as well should be examined to give answers to the WHY we are here at this point so a greater understanding and healing can begin or in some cases continue and be reckoned with.

It is Tracy folks like you and I that can help mend fences between the two "KENPO" groups. You see I don't see the Tracy group any different than Paul Mills group or Joe Palanzo's group or Mike Picks group or any other group for that matter. We are all different groups (organizations if you will) that all were students or former students of the "one and only" SGM Edmund K. Parker. Yes, some broke away for what ever reasons..... (like Tracy was the only one to leave.... come on! lol) all these separate groups still utilize the basic fundamental structure that Ed Parker developed. Advancements and updates are the key issues that separate or are a main focal point or stumbling block of today. As we come to accept our true roots this will enable us to start to share with all these groups and thus create an environment of unity.

Or at least that's my take.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Well said by both Mr. Simmons and GD7. Now, will anybody understand it, or will the bickering continue?

:asian:

Chuck

 

[GouRonin]

I find that if I hate everyone equally then it all seems to work out nicely.