LEO abuse of authority?

[tellner]

JKS, if a cop is being rude I don't like it, but I've had bad days and can deal. Someone abusing his authority may rest assured that I'll find a predatory lawyer, people in the press and so on to make life miserable enough for his superiors that it rains down on him for a long time. And I'll have enough money to pay the medical bills for whatever he did to me. It's all good.

It's the criminal conduct under color of law that bothers me. Just one case currently making the rounds here...

Two off duty police were at a downtown Greek restaurant here. They grabbed a customer's dinner according to witnesses. When the customer objected they hit him. He hit back. They drew on him and showed their badges, threatening to arrest the customer and several others. OK, drunken *******s are drunken *******s, and nobody is immune. What bothers me is that the entire precinct covered it up. They altered records, "lost" witness reports, and didn't refer it to IA. It was only when one officer couldn't believe what was happening and anonymously raised a flag that action was taken. His anonymity was broken, and last I heard he was being forced out of his job.

Or the State Troopers who for years stopped migrant families at the end of the harvest season, confiscated all of their earnings from the season and left them by the road without even their cars. And without turning the money in, by the bye It got so bad that the State Legislature finally got involved. It culminated in a referendum that overwhelmingly overturned civil forfeiture.

Or the case of one of our students whose cousin was getting married at 14 (not in Oregon). Pregnant. By the officer who arrested her for underage and drunk. In the back of his cruiser the night he arrested her. And didn't get fired much less charged even though 15 will get you 20 in that State.

Or the vice cop who was frequenting prostitutes. I don't know whether he got a discount.

Or a student of ours who was a cadet with a local sheriff's department. She came to us in tears because a bunch of the deputies had been roughing up a confused old man and then cuffed him hand and foot to a chair. She made the career-ending mistake of not going along with it. She called for first aid and gave him water. The next week she started getting sent alone on domestic violence calls with no partner and no gun in the rural part of the county.

We told her to complain. She said she was afraid because she'd seen complaints shredded in front of her. Besides, the sheriff had been screwing underage explorer scouts on company time during training exercises. He was finally convicted, by the bye. So we told her to talk to someone in the AoJ department and to ditch the hicks and take the summer internship with the FBI. I prayed over that decision and don't know if I gave her the right advice.

Or Abner Louima. The whole precinct covered up for the torture and near murder of an innocent man, intimidation of witnesses and death threats against the victim, the nurses and the doctor who treated him. In the end all but one or two walked. Most are still with the NYPD. A couple long-time NYPD officers assure me that their careers are stalled and they won't be promoted for a long time.

Well whoop-de-****ing-doo. If a bunch of Haitian immigrants had done that to a cop the Department wouldn't have rested until every one of them was dead or behind bars.

And a thousand others. I know that anecdotes are not data. But one sees a pattern after a couple decades. Police have broad powers of discretion. Due to the close working environment and danger they face they have (according to an retired police captain AoJ professor I had) a clan-type organizational structure. They will tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the people they rely on. And they are hostile to outside scrutiny or judgment by anyone other than another LEO.

To some degree that's understandable although not good. You have to trust people to use their discretion with discretion up to a certain point and save the big hammer for the big problems. But there is always a danger that tolerance for the little sins will turn into the covering up the big ones. Solidarity becomes secrecy. It doesn't take much, just a few influential training officers taking a bunch of rookies slightly the wrong way during their first year. Accepting a little gratuity here and there. And so it goes. The same thing happens in every walk of life, but most people don't have the powers and prestige of a police officer.

I am absolutely confident that people like you and Drac would not do anything like that. But that's because I have some idea of what you guys are like personally. I'm less willing to extend the same courtesy to everyone wearing a badge these days. Every time an officer looks the other way there's a risk that it will diminish the average citizen's respect for the law and its servants just a little bit. And when that reaches a certain critical threshold no amount of guns, badges or laws will suffice. Law enforcement is one of those magic things that only works because people believe in it. If they stop believing the magic goes away forever.

It's tough. The majority of cops are good people just like the majority of all people. I don't know how to answer the guy's question when it's an officer doing something criminal under the protection of his uniform. I'm afraid the answer will have to come from the police themselves. A willingness to hold police to the same or higher standards, better esprit de corps, less hostility towards Internal Affairs and civilian review would go a long way. Beyond that, I don't know. I just don't know.

 

[SKB]

JKS you have a good way of putting so people can understand. You folks have to remember every group of people has ‘bad apples’. When they are police it makes the news.

Almost everyone has a bad attitude toward the police. Even I hate to get pulled over but guess what? I know what I look like so I put my hands on the dash and wait for them to tell me what to do. I tell them what I am about to do before I do it. “I got to reach down to get my wallet.” And wait till they say ok. Cops are people and they want to go home at the end of their shift!

As far as making a list of things I got one………… I work in a Federal Prison, have you ever heard one story about a “prison guard” (the correct term is Corrections Officer) having urine thrown on them or feces or being spit on or being punched or kicked or how about stabbed?

How about my friend who was stabbed in the neck and killed! Or the three other officers who were stabbed in the same incident or how about his murder has still not gone to court after over ten years! Or how about the Officer in New York who is almost a vegetable after a terrorist drove a comb into his head or a female Officer two grown men went after and cut her throat after she was knocked out or all the rest of us the “bad guys” have stabbed or have tried to stab? Or how about all the Officers on the street who are assaulted or shot at? Or maybe the Border Patrol guys who are shot at by drug dealers or even the Mexican Army?

I could sit here and make a list of lawyers, doctors, carpenters, store owners and any other profession and find rapist, thieves and all the rest. O-wait a minute…… I spend eight hours or more a day with people who could fill that list.

I believe the question in this thread is valid but cut out the cop bashing! A lot of the “problems” people have with cops is the persons own attitude. How do I prove that…….. well when I wrote I’m a prison guard you already have an idea in your head of what I am like, right? And when I wrote my list some of you thought…….. “Well that is part of your job.” Ok now I’ll take a deep breath………..

 

[Primal Kuen]

Look, I don't see any cop bashing here...only the bashing of the overall corruption of the systems we are supposed to be able to trust...INCLUDING CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES AND THEIR OFFICERS. Don't even get me started on them. When your co-workers do stupid **** , and treat inmates the way they do...it's no wonder more of you are'nt killed. and if you are'nt one of them, then you become guilty by association.

I've been in prison, and I know what I'm talking about. Talk about abusing power... I was never in trouble in prison, and when I came up for parole this officer that did'nt like me decided to not open my door when it was time for me to go to my vocational class ( a class that I volunteered to take ) . why would he do that ? Because he then called his buddy at the school building, who the wrote a major disciplinary case on me for being 15 minutes late to school...a major disciplinary case is an automatic 1 year parole set-off in the state of texas. In short this guy with a ged education basically decided I needed to stay for another year in prison...and I did. he did that to me and my family. So, when you talk about your co-workers getting stabbed and pissed on, I know there is more to the story...even if other ppl don't. Correctional facilities are the worst when it comes to corruption and gross abuse of power and authority.

 

[Primal Kuen]

To clear up a couple of things on my last post....

First of all we all know prison is a bad place, and if you don't want to go thru that then don't put yourself there...blah blah... Well, there are many good ppl in prison that should'nt be there, and even if you do put yourself there ...that's not a right for the officers to **** with your life and beat you etc.


Secondly, I don't condone killing officers, it's just a wonder to me that more of them are'nt killed and pissed on/whatever. Given the amount of abuse and the amount of hardcore criminals ... = dangerous game.

 

[tellner]

SKB, your attitude is precisely what I was talking about. Any suggestion that some cops are less than perfect and that the institutions they belong to aren't either is "cop bashing". Suddenly it's The Thin Blue Line. If someone doesn't wholeheartedly support everything your tribe does it must be his fault because he's ignorant or bad or has a bad attitude.

Once someone is a "cop basher" you can safely ignore anything he says forever after.

If you'll look at what I actually wrote instead of the haze of your own rage you will see all the correct qualifiers. But you immediately closed ranks and attacked.

Thank you for so effectively demonstrating my point.

 

[SKB]

Well of course I closed ranks! Comes with the job, no wait the way of life! Some of us walk this plane doing the right thing, some do the wrong thing and there is the rest of the people. All cops are not saints. Some folks are quick to point this out. Just wanted to say there is more to what happens in the world then this narrow view which was being shown. Of course we all have "list" of things we can write down here to show our side of an issue. But I would ask one question............ If any of you can do a better job then the LEO's around you how about you step up to the plate? I really don't want to hear the silly reasons. "I make sooo much money doing what I do now." Go and sign up to be a reserve officer! Show the rest of us how it is supposed to be done! Put your life on the line, because guess what? Someone has to do it, why not you? Or maybe you should join the military and go do that for awhile? Someone has to? But better yet, sit at home and throw stones at others! Why? Because some one out there is holding that thin blue line for you!

For the other response.............. I'd get tossed off of here for what I want to say! But here is what I will say. Nothing happens in a bubble. I'm positive the CO had some reason for his action or your perception of his actions. Also real quick like, parole is not a right. You might want to say what YOU did to be put in prison and what YOU did to your family? That would be interesting. Of course we are supposed to care about the family of a convicted felon but not a law abiding CO? Kind of proves my point about people assuming 'prison guards' are evil and corrupt, does it not?

So after those fun replies people can start to see why Officers might act in a manner you do not like? Trying to stay on the topic of the thread..... keep this in mind when your dealing with someone, they are people also and have a job most do not want to do. So don't come off as an *** and maybe your dealings with them will be better? Also when you dealing with a cop "we" all have supervisors. Ask to speak to one of them!

O you might also want to take a moment today and thank "whoever" you live in the US and not some other countries were the "police" really are as bad as the bad guys?

 

[Primal Kuen]

It does'nt matter why... most gaurds are all pissed off because they could'nt make it in the police acadamy, thus they became what they believe is an equal task. when in reality, all you need is a GED and a willingness to work in a ****** invironment to do what you do. most were picked on in younger years/repeatedly failed police acadamy and desperately seek out a position of authority in a corrections facility.

You are NOT in the same line of work as the police officers, though you repeatedly put yourself in the same catagory. You...are a babbysitter of grown men. Your attitude tells me that you are one in the same with the gaurds that believe it is there job to inflict further sentencing beyond what the judge has already declared...and thus bring about the inmates own sentencing on you and your co-workers. If I were you, I'd check my attitude before it's too late.

You are correct that parole is not a right. But completing the sentence that the judge has declared without constant abuse of authority is a right, even if that right is not inforced...and so some choose to inforce it themselves.

The gaurd in my case did what he did because I filed a grievance on him, which achieved nathing but more abuse of authority by him...resulting in more time for me. I chose not to react as some would, but with that way of thinking and acting I'm sure he has learned his lesson by now.

 

[Primal Kuen]

This is turning to something with personal ties to me...so I will back off of this thread.

I will add, Thank you to all of you law inforcement officers who put your life on the line every day with integrity.

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note

ATTENTION ALL USERS!

Please keep the conversation to a polite and respectful tone.

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I've been in prison, and I know what I'm talking about. Talk about abusing power....

I knew it. And I dont meant that as a shot. I even alluded to that possibility a few posts up. Whenever I hear stories like this, or the inevitable list of "bad cop" stories that go with threads like this, a piece of me wonders what that persons criminal history is like. While seeing a cop make make me nervous in that "Catholic Guilt" style of wondering "what did I do?" or "is he about to kick my ***?" (In Chris Rock voice), I dont have any fear that hes corrupt, or go around telling "bad cop" stories. Not that abuse of power isnt out there. Im shure it is. I just dont go around saying that "most cops are good" but all those bad cops are the "tip of the iceburg" either. I think a part of this is that us guys dont like having other people who are tougher, richer, better looking, more powerful, etc. than us around. To soothe our self-esteem we look for reasons to dislike them.

 

[bydand]

Well I must say this is going to be a first here for me. Usually if there is a bit of heat in a thread, I go running for a fan and gas :angel:

I think there are good points made on both sides of the argument here. I also think that both sides are overly protective of their stance. First off I come from a family that has had LEO's in it, My Father was a cop in Lansing, MI during the race tensions of the mid/late 60's, my Sister was a cop in Battle Creek, MI and was in a rather crappy section of town. By the same token, my best friend from Kindergarten on has spent time behind bars for stupid actions on his part, and several other friends have been there too. The original question I'll paraphrase down to my take on it was: What to do if you see an abuse of power by an LEO in uniform? Man, one of the toughest questions I have seen on this forum really. First instinct would be to react like it was anybody else... BUT, then again, you cannot discount the uniform and the solidarity behind it. I think it is great when officers stand up for one another, God knows few others will, but that is often a misplaced sense of loyalty when it come to covering up situations. Do I have an answer? Not really, I will have to think more on the matter and get back with one. Off hand I would say if you seen the situation from the start and are an IMPARTIAL bystander, you need to do something, up to and including restraining the aggressor, but you had better be able to keep said person from further abuse by anybody else present. If you are in ANY way involved with either side in the conflict you need to stay the hell out of it because your actions will taint the outcome further.

Let me think a bit more about it...

 

[SKB]

Well let me clear a few things up............. Most of the youngsters we hire now days have degrees. I am one on the few who does not, never did finish the degree thing. But wait that means I have more then just a GED if I can put "some" done on an application right?

I never did try to go to a police academy? I found something I woke up one day to realize I am good at. Not everyone can do the job.

So I have all the rights and responsiblities as any other law enforcment officer but some how I am not one. Might be diffrent in Texas but here in California I am a LEO same as everyone else? Also you might want to ask a few street cops. Most don't know how we do it and most of us do not understand how they do it. At least I know who the bad guys are!!!!

I really was not the kid you picked on in school, I was the kid who pulled you off the guy you were picking on. I also learned about authority and leadership while I was in the United States Marine Corps. Not sitting at home wishing people would stop picking on me and trying to find a job where I could have some authority.

Speaking of being able to tell alot about what they write....... "inmate" my job is to keep people locked up for the time the judge sentances them to. In the most secure and safe enviorment I can. Not to punish anyone for what they did to end up in the prison. You coming to prison is punishment. Of course most people do not like being in prison since there are rules and cops around you all the time. Maybe soceity should re-think the system. If you can not follow the rules in "free" society, society puts you in a place with more rules and cops?

Now if you knew me you would know you are barking up the wrong tree about my attitude. I am the one the "convicts" and you "inmates" come to when they have a problem that needs fix'in. I am also the one the bosses come to when they have a problem which needs fix'in! And most the time I can fix the problem by talking to the problem. By the way, folks have tried what you are alluding to and I have taken my share of **** downs, been attacked, straight out fought dudes, got in a few fights were the other guy had a knife, etc. etc. Inmates threatening me with physical violance wore off a long time ago!

So let me translate some of this "conversation" for those who do not understand what you and I are talking about.

You...are a babbysitter of grown men.

Old prison joke. A lot of the time we stand around doing nothing more then making sure supposedly grown men have toilet paper, get feed and be where they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be. It is a mild insult by the way.

and thus bring about the inmates own sentencing on you and your co-workers. If I were you, I'd check my attitude before it's too late.

What he is saying is the inmates will not like something or feel disrespected and throw stuff at us or attack us. Most take the easy way and just throw their own **** at us. Yes they put their own **** in a cup and throw it at us. "Check'in" my attitude means I should be really nice to them and not ENFORCE any rules or they will beat me up or kill me. This is one of the weakest attempts an inmate can make to intimidate an Officer.

So my next question would be what did the CO do that you wrote him up? I wonder if it was bad enough to warrent the Officer losing his job, not being able to pay his bills or feed his family? Maybe he searched your stuff and did not put the lid back on a pen? Then you thought he would never repay the favor?????

Well I have another question, since you won't say why soceity thought you broke a rule and had to go to prison.

How many times did the Officers beat the snot out of you? If they beat you everyday, made you sleep in your own ****, did not feed you, did not give you your mail, did not let you have visits, did not let you go outside to socialize or workout, did not let you call home, refuse to let you see a lawyer or something along those lines you might have a case to sue the agency which held you? But if your complaint is the company they kept you with......... sorry we can't do anything about that!

So once again trying to stay on what I thought the idea of this thread was........ When you are dealing with the police but your ideas of who and what they are to the side and deal with them as people. kind of like the police have to do when dealing with you. Or even closer to home, like I have to do when some dirtbag comes to my prison.

 

[Primal Kuen]

Well, I guess I will reply after all...

First I'm not an "inmate"....that was 17 years ago, and the only time I've ever been in trouble. Kids do stupid things...most do not get caught.

Beyond your flawed translation of what I said... It was not about "rules" and guards enforcing them, or prisoners "not liking their company" etc. what are you talking about ?

It's about ABUSE OF AUTHORITY. You know it exists in every correctional facility in our country... from "small" things like beatings and planting evidence , "throwing away " mail marked as legal documents....to rape and "paying off " or blackmailing inmates into murder ( and betting on the results ). All of these things occur on a daily basis, and have made the news many times... why you do not want to admit it is beyond me.

when you speak of gross or violant things that happen to correctional officers... ppl need to know that these instances, while completely wrong, pale in comparison to the gross and violant things done by the officers in both ferocity and number of instances.

Many ppl will not believe that...many ppl choose to be blind. And so it will continue.

 

[bydand]

What you want to do is, stick your finger right in his face and say, "Hey, you! I pay your salary!" Works every time.

Ive often wondered about that little ditty. Dont cops pay taxes too?

This actually happened to my Father. he replied "I guess that makes me self-employed, here's your ticket." I still chuckle when I think of that.

 

[Primal Kuen]

Since you are so insistant on me telling you what I did wrong, I will.

I had just turned 17, and decided to go to a party with a friend of mine. While there, he ran into his x-girlfriend who had recently left him, and took much of his belongings in the process. So he decides to take her money and jewelry he had bought her in retaliation... I told him I was leaving before a fight broke out, so he came with me. on the way to take him home we get pulled over...and charged with "strong armed robbery" , I was included because " I was the driver ".

Being a scared kid, and just wanting to get out of jail, I quickly ( and stupidly ) signed papers for 10 years probation rather than fighting it in court, and staying in jail all that time.

About 4 months into it, and not missing a single report date, I found myself without a way to go to my probation meeting. I called my probation officer who told me if I was'nt there in 30 minutes I would be revoked. I begged him, saying that even if I called a cab I would'nt be able to make it in that time...not that I had the money for a cab. When I got there 3 hours later they arrested me.

from there I was sent to prison on that "10 year sentence" . The judge said "don't worry, you'll do a turn-around...get right back out on parole "

6 years later, getting turned down every time I came up for parole, my famiy hired a lawyer and found out that each time I was comming up for parole the parole board was looking at someone elses file with a much worse case. Someone with the same name as me....meanwhile he was released years earlier ...because of my file.... The lawyer said we could'nt sue, because after all I had not been kept longer than 10 years. However an investigation was launched and the entire parole board was fired.

After 6 years of ********, about to be released...I get the "major disciplanary case " for being 15 minutes late to school....which was an automatic 1 year parole set-off. The guard purposley did not let me out of my cell in time. So, on my 7th year I finally get released...having watched many killers and child molesters come and get released long before me.

So you tell me, am I some dirtbag criminal, or a victim of one hell of a screwed up system ?

 

[MJS]

It does'nt matter why... most gaurds are all pissed off because they could'nt make it in the police acadamy, thus they became what they believe is an equal task. when in reality, all you need is a GED and a willingness to work in a ****** invironment to do what you do. most were picked on in younger years/repeatedly failed police acadamy and desperately seek out a position of authority in a corrections facility.

You are NOT in the same line of work as the police officers, though you repeatedly put yourself in the same catagory. You...are a babbysitter of grown men. Your attitude tells me that you are one in the same with the gaurds that believe it is there job to inflict further sentencing beyond what the judge has already declared...and thus bring about the inmates own sentencing on you and your co-workers. If I were you, I'd check my attitude before it's too late.

You are correct that parole is not a right. But completing the sentence that the judge has declared without constant abuse of authority is a right, even if that right is not inforced...and so some choose to inforce it themselves.

The gaurd in my case did what he did because I filed a grievance on him, which achieved nathing but more abuse of authority by him...resulting in more time for me. I chose not to react as some would, but with that way of thinking and acting I'm sure he has learned his lesson by now.

Well, I'd like to say a few things.

1) Many police depts. only require a high school diploma or GED, so the comment about the COs is really moot. Of course, if one intends on moving up the ladder, then a college education is most likely going to be required.

2) I worked in Corrections. I currently am a dispatcher for a PD, so I can relate to both.

I will agree with you. I saw corrupt things back then, and I see it now, with this job. I've taken calls from people, sent a cop, the cop clears the call, and the person calls back telling me they don't like the way the cop treated them, spoke to them, etc. Unfortunately, there are some bad apples, but there are also some very good, dedicated LEOs and COs that put their life on the line every day. I have very good friends in Corrections and that are cops. I tip my hat to them for the job they do. Like I said, just because there are a few bad ones, doesnt mean they're all like that.

I still stand by my comments I made earlier. If you feel you're getting singled out, I'd cooperate at the time, but file a complaint later. I don't know your entire story with your dealings with the CO, so I won't comment on that.

 

[jks9199]

It's the criminal conduct under color of law that bothers me. Just one case currently making the rounds here...

<litany deleted for conciseness>
To some degree that's understandable although not good. You have to trust people to use their discretion with discretion up to a certain point and save the big hammer for the big problems. But there is always a danger that tolerance for the little sins will turn into the covering up the big ones. Solidarity becomes secrecy. It doesn't take much, just a few influential training officers taking a bunch of rookies slightly the wrong way during their first year. Accepting a little gratuity here and there. And so it goes. The same thing happens in every walk of life, but most people don't have the powers and prestige of a police officer.

I am absolutely confident that people like you and Drac would not do anything like that. But that's because I have some idea of what you guys are like personally. I'm less willing to extend the same courtesy to everyone wearing a badge these days. Every time an officer looks the other way there's a risk that it will diminish the average citizen's respect for the law and its servants just a little bit. And when that reaches a certain critical threshold no amount of guns, badges or laws will suffice. Law enforcement is one of those magic things that only works because people believe in it. If they stop believing the magic goes away forever.

It's tough. The majority of cops are good people just like the majority of all people. I don't know how to answer the guy's question when it's an officer doing something criminal under the protection of his uniform. I'm afraid the answer will have to come from the police themselves. A willingness to hold police to the same or higher standards, better esprit de corps, less hostility towards Internal Affairs and civilian review would go a long way. Beyond that, I don't know. I just don't know.

I do believe it was you who trotted out that school shootings are rare, and that's why they make the news. Might I suggest that a similar principle applies here?

Again, I also must note that as long as we hire human beings to be cops, there'll be a few who do incredibly stupid things. Just like any other profession... It's just more likely to be NEWS when it involves a cop.

The original question I'll paraphrase down to my take on it was: What to do if you see an abuse of power by an LEO in uniform? Man, one of the toughest questions I have seen on this forum really. First instinct would be to react like it was anybody else... BUT, then again, you cannot discount the uniform and the solidarity behind it. I think it is great when officers stand up for one another, God knows few others will, but that is often a misplaced sense of loyalty when it come to covering up situations. Do I have an answer? Not really, I will have to think more on the matter and get back with one. Off hand I would say if you seen the situation from the start and are an IMPARTIAL bystander, you need to do something, up to and including restraining the aggressor, but you had better be able to keep said person from further abuse by anybody else present. If you are in ANY way involved with either side in the conflict you need to stay the hell out of it because your actions will taint the outcome further.

LEOs are human; get even the best on a bad day, and they might do something stupid. And, yes, we do sometimes look out for each other, and handle problems out of the public view. Do you like your dirty laundry aired in public? Handling something in-house is not the same as ignoring or tolerating it!

What should you do if you WITNESS what you believe is criminal behavior by the cops? Report it. Contact their agency; speak to a supervisor. If it's life threatening, call 911. Guess what? If I've had the lousiest day in hell and my last straw snaps, and I don't realize it and I'm doing something like beating someone beyond their resistance (I've left work some days because I realized I was becoming a danger to the public; so have many other cops I know) -- stop me. But, unless there's no other way, I wouldn't intervene directly as a civilian. Too much can go too wrong jumping in the middle like that! And, if the agency involved doesn't seem inclined to deal with the problem -- contact your state police, or state attorney general, or even the FBI. They'll at least guide you in what to do.

What should you do if you believe that you're the victim of police misconduct? As I said, generally, endure it for the moment, and deal with it later, as above.

 

[bydand]

LEOs are human; get even the best on a bad day, and they might do something stupid. And, yes, we do sometimes look out for each other, and handle problems out of the public view. Do you like your dirty laundry aired in public? Handling something in-house is not the same as ignoring or tolerating it!

I never said it was the case, and wasn't even trying to imply that it was. If it came across that way, I didn't do my job as a poster in making my views clear. I think it is GREAT when LEO's stand up for each other, but sometimes it can be misplaced. If a cover up of wrongdoing happens, then it is misplaced loyalty. IA inquiries are not a cover-up and I didn't mean that they were.

What should you do if you WITNESS what you believe is criminal behavior by the cops? Report it. Contact their agency; speak to a supervisor. If it's life threatening, call 911. Guess what? If I've had the lousiest day in hell and my last straw snaps, and I don't realize it and I'm doing something like beating someone beyond their resistance (I've left work some days because I realized I was becoming a danger to the public; so have many other cops I know) -- stop me. But, unless there's no other way, I wouldn't intervene directly as a civilian. Too much can go too wrong jumping in the middle like that! And, if the agency involved doesn't seem inclined to deal with the problem -- contact your state police, or state attorney general, or even the FBI. They'll at least guide you in what to do.

What should you do if you believe that you're the victim of police misconduct? As I said, generally, endure it for the moment, and deal with it later, as above.

I added the bold to what I feel is the single biggest thing here. I agree and I thought that is what I said. Re-reading that part, I didn't say it directly, but did imply it earlier in my post. Just like any other dispute we might happen across. Unless something dire is going to happen to one of the involved parties, we could (and most probably will) make it a worse situation with intervention.

I truly think we are on the same side here, just a bit of that flash of anger when we read something that at first glance sounds like conflict to our stand. Re-read what I posted. I didn't mean to imply somebody should willy-nilly interfere with a LEO's job. Just as a LAST resort to a gross injustice where someone may be hurt very severely, or worse and there is NO other alternative. Standing by and giving clear, concise testimony later is better than getting involved physically, because you WILL spend time in the clink until things get straightened out. At least that is what I have always been taught.

 

[tellner]

JKS, I believe that we are in almost complete agreement on all of the facts and the underlying reasons. A lot of it is a matter of perspective. You are part of the Brotherhood, so your experience causes you to shade things one way. I'm not, and I'm constitutionally mistrustful of authority unless it is carefully controlled. It might come from tribal history. Being Jewish and the descendant of refugees in so many places gives one an ambivalent attitude towards whoever is holding the sword. To make a long story - the source of thousands of pages of learned and experienced debate on both sides - very short, let's say this...

Most police officers are decent civil servants, albeit with a little more gung-ho and a greater tolerance for adrenaline than your average desk-pilot The average recruit wants to help people and protect them from bad people. And no matter how cynical an old cop can be that's still the core belief. For the most part people trust them. For the most part they are deserving of that trust except in really egregious cases like Bull Connor's spiritual children and the astoundingly corrupt New Orleans area departments. I'm sorry, anyone who defends the NOLAPD as an institution needs professional help and a light horsewhipping

But there are institutional issues because of the way we hire, train and organize police. There could be a lot more institutional accountability to outside review which would add a degree of transparency to the process. As it is, many good people are mistrustful because of the a nearly universal hostility to all such checks and balances.

We see what we see and hear what we hear. If that were (for the most part) the extent of the criminally bad abuses we could say "That's that. This is what we have to do to get it down to an acceptable level." But since it's murky and nothing real is done to dispel those doubts people will assume (rightly) that there is more and that they are being stonewalled. The more resistance there is to open investigation and external accountability the more people will assume is being hidden. When the people so defended have tremendous discretion to permanently mess up or end a person's life with seeming impunity the need for openness and responsibility is even greater. The amount of grief the whistleblowers in these cases got and the degree of institutional resistance to shining lights on the roaches is troubling.

It is not an easy problem to solve, but I believe that it is an important one. Again, I don't have cites, but in a couple AoJ graduate seminars we read papers - some sponsored by the FOP - that indicated police officers were more likely than the norm to be alcoholic, divorced, and have a psychological profile more at risk for domestic violence. They were also several times as likely to give a brother or sister officer a pass on a speeding ticket than they were to extend the same courtesy to a regular citizen. That's not to say that police officers are a bunch of lonely drunken wife beaters who cover up for each other. Not for a minute. Not a bit. It does indicate that the stresses of the job put one at risk for some serious damage. It requires monitoring. And it must be taken into account and nipped in the bud before it blossoms into something unfortunate.

I'm open to suggestions. "Don't worry about it, nothing is going on," isn't a very good one, especially when there's evidence to the contrary. "Police are held to a higher standard" just isn't true. "Screw the Pigs!" is stupid and childish (at best).

 

[Drac]

1) Many police depts. only require a high school diploma or GED, so the comment about the COs is really moot.

That's all I got..A GED...