Leaping Crane

[MJS]

There is a good thread going on over at KT about this technique. I thought that we could discuss it here as well, for any members that are not a part of KT. The main focus was the application of the 'leap', the kick and the knuckle rake. The technique as written, has the defender hop onto his left leg, parrying the punching hand, as you deliver a knuckle rake and then a right side kick to the knee.

Seems to me, especially against a committed punch, that it would make more sense to step, rather than hop and then continue as normal. You're more in balance compared to hopping onto your left.

How does everyone else perform this technique?

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is a good thread going on over at KT about this technique. I thought that we could discuss it here as well, for any members that are not a part of KT. The main focus was the application of the 'leap', the kick and the knuckle rake. The technique as written, has the defender hop onto his left leg, parrying the punching hand, as you deliver a knuckle rake and then a right side kick to the knee.

Seems to me, especially against a committed punch, that it would make more sense to step, rather than hop and then continue as normal. You're more in balance compared to hopping onto your left.

How does everyone else perform this technique?

You are better off launching. Stepping indicates a leg getting off the line of attack for a transference of body weight to the new base. Launching moves your whole body off the line of attack.
Sean

 

[masherdong]

I remember learning is as a shuffle with your rear leg coming behind and tapping the lead leg's knee.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I remember learning is as a shuffle with your rear leg coming behind and tapping the lead leg's knee.

Wow!... That is a slower method.
Sean

 

[masherdong]

Wow!... That is a slower method.

Well, you step with your left leg to 10:30 or 11:00 and the right leg follows your left leg and taps the knee.

 

[MJS]

You are better off launching. Stepping indicates a leg getting off the line of attack for a transference of body weight to the new base. Launching moves your whole body off the line of attack.
Sean

Thats interesting. Never had it explained like that. I'm curious though, and I may have missed it, but I can't recall seeing it explained like this on the thread at KT. Additionally, and I know that we shouldn't hold the written versions in "Big Red" as the end all be all way of doing the tech., but looking at a written version, you never see the word launch, just step.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Thats interesting. Never had it explained like that. I'm curious though, and I may have missed it, but I can't recall seeing it explained like this on the thread at KT. Additionally, and I know that we shouldn't hold the written versions in "Big Red" as the end all be all way of doing the tech., but looking at a written version, you never see the word launch, just step.

Mike

Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.

"Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process.

According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.

"Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process.

According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.

True, unless you are already prepared to launch by your left foot being slightly forward into more of a ready stance. Most of the time, if a punch is already in progress before it occurs to you to react, you get hit.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.

"Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process.

According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.

Thanks Doc! As I said, this discussion was the first time that I had ever heard of such a suggestion. Out of curiosity, what was the success rate of the people who opted to move them to the 'action mode' that you describe?

True, unless you are already prepared to launch by your left foot being slightly forward into more of a ready stance. Most of the time, if a punch is already in progress before it occurs to you to react, you get hit.
Sean

I suppose this would be a good time to talk about the stance we're in. Like I said, this is an interesting subject, due to the fact that I never really gave much thought of the launch vs step, although unless I'm planning on pre-empting, I've always stepped.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Thanks Doc! As I said, this discussion was the first time that I had ever heard of such a suggestion. Out of curiosity, what was the success rate of the people who opted to move them to the 'action mode' that you describe?

When you move before you're really attacked, the odds are usually in your favor. That's the reason why it's popular, if not actually practical.

See the on going discussion on KT.

 

[MJS]

When you move before you're really attacked, the odds are usually in your favor. That's the reason why it's popular, if not actually practical.

See the on going discussion on KT.

Doc, obviously you've analyzed these techniques much more than I have. If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach your students to do?

edit: I'll pop over to KT.

 

[Doc]

Doc, obviously you've analyzed these techniques much more than I have. If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach your students to do?

edit: I'll pop over to KT.

We're in the midst of discussing the technique on KT as well as performing some awareness experiments. I can't do this on the same subject on two forums at the same time. Its too time consuming sir. It will be covered over there.

 

[MJS]

We're in the midst of discussing the technique on KT as well as performing some awareness experiments. I can't do this on the same subject on two forums at the same time. Its too time consuming sir. It will be covered over there.

Not a problem Doc. I'll resume over there.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I suppose this would be a good time to talk about the stance we're in. Like I said, this is an interesting subject, due to the fact that I never really gave much thought of the launch vs step, although unless I'm planning on pre-empting, I've always stepped.

Mike

A step indicates moving a part your base away from your center of gravity. A ready person would naturaly attempt "Launching Crain" which would be a leap without heighth. And you can't launch or leap quickly with your feet toguether. It would be an either/or thing depending on an individual's natural standing position.
Sean

 

[MeatWad2]

I have a different version of a technique called "leaping crane." I have it as hoping on to your left foot while you do a left hammer to the ulna followed by a right backfist to the temple. Right side kick/stomp to their knee. As you step down, you grab the head with the left and right elbow to the temple. switch so your right hand is in front of their face, and rake the face. You end with a right stepping stool round house to their face.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have a different version of a technique called "leaping crane." I have it as hoping on to your left foot while you do a left hammer to the ulna followed by a right backfist to the temple. Right side kick/stomp to their knee. As you step down, you grab the head with the left and right elbow to the temple. switch so your right hand is in front of their face, and rake the face. You end with a right stepping stool round house to their face.

Why are you grabbing the head?

 

[Andrew Green]

And for those of us that don't speak Kenpoese:
[yt]Qk4qVzuQf7o[/yt]

 

[MJS]

A step indicates moving a part your base away from your center of gravity. A ready person would naturaly attempt "Launching Crain" which would be a leap without heighth. And you can't launch or leap quickly with your feet toguether. It would be an either/or thing depending on an individual's natural standing position.
Sean

Interesting points about the stance. For myself, when I execute my techniques, I tend to do them from either a neutral stances or more of a narrow neutral bow. In other words, from a neutral stance, taking a small step back with the right foot. If there were an X on the ground my feet would be on this \ line.

 

[michaeledward]

And for those of us that don't speak Kenpoese:

I like that clip, a lot. He does a very good job of breaking down the technique. It's one of the nicer presentations of a technique I have seen from youtube. Thanks.

We do it a bit differently. I am going to try and explain our differences, and why. Take it as you will.

In our studio, the initial right hand strike does not go to the ribs, but rather the middle knuckle is attempting to clip the underside of the punch; either the forearm (preferred) or the tricep area. This has to do with range. Later, as we gain greater skill, we see the Crane techniques get in closer (Gathering Clouds (which does strike the ribs), Clipping the Storm).

He shows the hammerfist as a 'pendulum' strike ... he teaches this effectively, but I think that is the wrong circle. A pendulum is swinging on a vertical circle. We use a horizontal circle, striking the kidney with the right backfist and following through, all the way to our right hip in the chambered position. As shown in the clip, he is striking the attackers left kidney. I am pretty certain we work our strike to the right kidney ~ although I think the rotation created by the kick could dictate either choice.

By using his pendulum strike, the travel for that inward elbow strike is impeded, in my opinion. By swinging his hand on a vertical circle, the elbow is in very close to the attackers head. It makes for a fast elbow strike. We train to get our right hand chambered back, and launch that elbow, still on a horizontal circle, from a full cocked position. This gives us full travel (always being careful to avoid false travel) for that shot to the head.

My last thought is about the elbow sandwich. In the clip, he executes a heel palm strike to the opposite side of the head from the elbow strike. I suppose this makes sense with the shortened travel of the pendulum strike discussed above. We do not use an elbow sandwich here. Our left hand is busy checking the attackers body for any rotation. Usually, I have my left hand on the attackers right shoulder, or upper arm. If he attempts to turn toward me, I will be aware of it and (hopefully) able to concentrate. If both my hands are at his head, his elbows might be thrown backward into my groin / thigh / lower ab.

Now, if I ripped the tendons out of his knee, and split open his knee-cap, the elbow strikes aren't really going to be a problem, but I want some way to measure and check the rotation of his body.

Andrew Green ~ thank you for the post. People executing this technique as taught in that clip could do much, much worse, in my opinion.

 

[bujuts]

My last thought is about the elbow sandwich. In the clip, he executes a heel palm strike to the opposite side of the head from the elbow strike. I suppose this makes sense with the shortened travel of the pendulum strike discussed above.

I use the elbow sandwich myself, and for good reason. Many don't do the elbow sandwich to the head, rather they do an elbow sandwich six inches behind the head, such as in this clip. If we are to break the mandible with the elbow sandwich, the elbow requires greater penetration into the body. Does anybody have some thoughts on practicing correct depth, rather than sandwiching mid air? Why do so many practice it this way when its a totally incorrect depth?

cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF