Kosho Ryu?

[sksk]

Here is how i test and what i require but others will do it differently.

Hachikyu Yellow belt

Dachi: they will be tested on the proper structure, alignment and posture of all the basic stance(horse, back, front, cat, one-point, crossed stances)

Uke: they will be tested on there basic blocks and emphasis will be on proper alignments and posture, for power and speed (rising, lower parry, middle knifehand, reverse middle block)

Atemi: We will test them on proper alignments, specifically on use of whole body motion. Reverse punch, lunge punch, knife hand strike, back fist, one knuckle punch. also there is a particular way the hand is formed in the seiken or so we make sure they understand that.

Geri: we test them on balance power, speed, and posture. (front, back, roundhouse, side, crescent)

Katas: juni-ippo Shodan,nidan, sandan, i believe you already know the history of this kata. We have the students do the kata in a wide base, we look for proper transfer of power, transitions from stances, and alignments.
students will have to bunkai 2-3 applications from the form

Then they are tested on octagon drills: the first two are the front stance octagon an back stance octagon. on these we are looking to see if the alignment of the stances are correct, that they understand how to root. and the how to coordinate upper and lower portions of the body. students must be able to bunkai 2-3 move from these octagons ( the only reasons i did not go into details on what the octagon drills were, is because i thought there have been other posts on this subject)

there is history and terms they must also know.

it would take along time to describe all they ways material can be analyzed and worked for example with strikes-bag work, line drills, partner hitting, etc.

But i hope this helps

best regards

George

 

[Danjo]

Wow! You guys are something else! I'm finally getting a dialogue going about Kosho Ryu and you let someone like Shawn Baily derail it?

I'll admit to my none-too-secret scepticism regarding Kosho ryu and Juchnick, but it doesn't mean that I can't change my mind on any of it. When some of you seemed ready to start giving details and not vague philosophies, I thought that we were finally going to get some public understanding of this willow-the-wisp art. Oh well.

When I hear that a system that is claimed to be 22 generations of grandmasters long exists, I think it would be cool if some details were given. I mean think of how long that is. 22 generations, assuming each generation to be an average of 40 years, would make Kosho Ryu nearly 900 years old. If the generations are longer than that, then just do the math. Now, despite the above quoted article from Shawn, I find it odd that Juchnik would so dramatically alter an art that existed for so long. Are we to believe that there was no curriculum for an art that is nearly 900 years old or older? Or, if there is, that it can be so blithely thrown aside in favor of Okinawan kata and some forms made up by Juchnik? What was so outdated (if we're to follow the logic of Shawn's article) that the system needed an entire overhaul? The letter on Juchnik's own website from Mitose said that Juchnik still lacked important parts of the art that couldn't be conveyed to him unless Mitose was free from prison (which we know never happened), so why would Juchnik seek to change it so dramatically?

Some people here say that Kosho can't be taught via video, yet Juchnik offers to do just that for 29 dollars per month. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

You see, I am seeking answers to some real questions. What I receive is hostility when I ask for more than a "Root Master said so" response. Pretty sad IMO.

Oh, and since we're quoting people, I thought I'd quote Doc from a couple of years ago on this same subject. This is in regards to the timeline issue I have been talking about. You now say that I have to prove that Trias didn't meet Mitose?

"Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly keltner
May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was.

Yep! That's what he said all right.

Quote:
With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story.

You know I hate to say it but that's just pure dumb. Anybody could come on the net and say, "I was there and Doc's right" if that's all it takes to stop the whining and yapping.

Quote:
Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose.

Can you get someone who was there to come forth and corroborate that?

Quote:
So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.

See what I mean? I need corroboration, a vaccination, and a note from my teacher, but ole Bruce's word is gospel. Well he was there, and he did suck that day - I don't mean that in a bad way - maybe he was just having a bad day. As far as the "grain of salt," if you take everything Bruce says as the "truth" just because he says it, you'll need more than salt to make those stories taste good. But you too are entitled to your opinion, even though you weren't there and really don't know whether Bruce was or not. At least I'm not relying on what someone told me. Incense anyone? YSDAB*"

You see?This is what I'm getting at too. I would like more information than simply "The Root Master said it, so it must be fact." I'm open to convincing.

 

[MJS]

Guys,

It should be no surprise to any of us, that anytime history, rank, etc., is discussed, tensions have the potential to get hot. What may appear to be a clear cut explaination to one, may not be to someone else. Thats the nature of a forum. Reading thru these posts, I really don't see anything heated or off topic. I see people asking questions, which is a good thing. Lets try to answer questions to the best of our ability. Many times when things seem to be avoided, it tends to lead to a 'hot pursuit' of the subject, which isn't always a good thing.

Lets keep things civil and have some good discussion. :ultracool

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Alot of misunderstanding seems to center around the whole "No Techniques" issue. Let me attempt once more to clarify.

Kosho and a pre-arranged technique based system such as EPAK are different solutions to the same problem. Mathmatecally that would be the difference between: A + B = C and A = C - B. The components are very much the same. The difference is in the arrangement or how the solution is organized.

Both EPAK and Kosho attempt to teach how to defend oneself.

In EPAK the student is taught Basics, Pre-Arranged Self Defense Responses to Various Attacks (Techniques), & Forms. When starting out the "Techniques" are done with no resistance and no what ifs. As the student progresses they are taught the principles that make the "Techniques" work. As their skill and understanding grows the "Techniques" are resisted and they are introduced to variables. They are taught how to adapt & graft so their "Techniques" can become instinctive, fluid, and spontaneous.

In Kosho the student is also taught Basics and Forms but rather than being given Pre-Arranged Responses "Techniques" the student is taught principles and the teacher demonstrates some of the ways the principles can be applied. The student will work with a partner on each principle against all possible attacks from every angle and with a number of desired outcomes (escape, throw, lock, strike). The student will experiment with Kata (Forms), Kumite (Sparring), Shodo (Calligraphy), & Shiatsu (Japanese Massage) to see where they can see parallels and possible applications of the principles. After much study and practice the Kosho student response will be instictive, fluid, & spontaneous.

My point is that the approach is different but they are very similar in the outcome. Not that they will look the same because their are differences in Basics and Principles utilized.

Hope this helps.

_Don Flatt

 

[MJS]

Don,

Thank you for the breakdown. I can't speak for every EPAK teacher out there, but I can speak for what I do. Anytime I'd teach a new technique, I'd always stress to the student that this is simply a foundation to build off of, not something that is set in stone. There were times when I'd have a technique line going. A newer student would be doing their defense. I would intentionally call out an attack that the student didn't know a defense for. They'd have that 'deer in the headlights' look about them. I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch, kick and move? They would say yes. I'd say, well ok then, lets see it! They didn't do Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers or any of the other preset punch defenses we have, but they'd do something, and that was my goal...to have them react and not have to think. So they'd end up doing a block, outward handsword, and front kick and cover out. Was it a named move? Nope, but I didn't care, as my goal was to have them react, not stand there.

All that said, I think I was doing exactly what you folks in the Kosho system do from day 1. Like you said, different approach, same outcome.

Mike

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Danjo,

I think you said it well enough when you stated that you are skeptical about Kosho. And honestly I don't really have any desire to change your view points. Perhaps some other Kosho student will be willing to try and convince you of what and how we do things.

I've made this suggestion before to others - call Bruce Juchnik on the phone and talk with him personally. Or go and visit him at a seminar. I don't have a map so I don't know how far Fullerton is from Sacramento, but if you really want to know about Kosho you might want to take a drive.

As far as curriculum goes, Juchnik has stated that Mitose taught him in riddles. There was no set way of learning things in a particular order. Perhaps that because Mitose was in prison. Maybe Terry Lee / Nemir Hassan can help you to know what Mitose taught during regular classes. I believe that Hanshi Juchnik went to him years ago to get an understanding of what was taught at that time.

As far as the length of time in which Kosho has been around the legend has it starting in 1235AD. Go to the official SKSK website at www.skski.net and get some more info on that. If you have questions about what is said you should contact Bruce Juchnik directly.

The website for kosho video lessons is run by a kosho student, not Hanshi Juchnik. I think it's a great way to expose people to Kosho who might not otherwise be able to get exposed to our art. You cannot learn from a video but you can take an idea from a video and work it with a partner until you do learn it through personal experience. Of course any misunderstandings won't be corrected unless you train with a certified Kosho teacher. And you won't be earning any rank.

One more thing. I'm not being hostile towards you. But rather I feel frustrated that you are not understanding what I am saying. I believe it's because you don't really care to understand - so for me it's a waste of time talking about this to you.

But if you have a (one) specific question you'd like to ask perhaps I can answer it for you. But please know that if your question has to do with Hanshi Juchnik personally then I will simply encourage you to talk with him personally. I am not qualified to speak for Bruce Juchnik.

I did notice you wanted to know how the SKK curriculum differs from KRK at my school. The differences are more in the way things are taught. For instance, I teach the SKK 1-20 combination self defense techniques at my school. But I have changed them so they actually work and you don't have to muscle your way through them. Also in SKK the attacker only punches in once per technique. In KRK the the attacker may attack as much as they want to. I change the timing and other aspects of the technique according to what's happening.

In KRK I can take any form and create techniques that most students would never even think of. This is because in KRK we look at things differently. We don't always view a punch as a punch. It might be used for something completely different.

I truly hope this helps. And I really hope you call Bruce Juchnik on the phone and chat with him.


Take care,
John

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,


I did notice you wanted to know how the SKK curriculum differs from KRK at my school. The differences are more in the way things are taught. For instance, I teach the SKK 1-20 combination self defense techniques at my school. But I have changed them so they actually work and you don't have to muscle your way through them. Also in SKK the attacker only punches in once per technique. In KRK the the attacker may attack as much as they want to. I change the timing and other aspects of the technique according to what's happening.

Take care,
John

Okay, I have a familiarity with SKK combos as I have a brown belt in SKK. So how would you tweak the to make the really work for instance? Take #3 or #15 for instance and please help me see how to tweak them to make the work using Kosho principles.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Some people here say that Kosho can't be taught via video, yet Juchnik offers to do just that for 29 dollars per month. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

My last response to Danjo - What contradiction? You've been told in a previous post that the videos are a supplement to not replacement for live instruction.

What video learning program do you speak of? I'm unaware of any such thing. Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.

The link you cited:

I don't think I mentioned rank. The program I'm referring to is this one: http://www.koshoelessons.com/overview.html

This sort of flies in the face of the idea that this all has to be felt to be learned no?

Read it, says the same thing.

Can I earn a belt just by using Kosho E Lessons?​

Kosho E Lessons is not about achieving rank and is certainly not a mail order belt program. The purpose of Kosho E Lessons is knowledge...to supplement your training and to provide you with information you would otherwise not have immediate access to. As with any reputable school, rank determination is based on proper technical skills and time. Simply viewing and learning the lessons online is not enough to advance in belt rank. Rank advancement takes a great deal of time, effort, and commitment under a qualified instructor.

check it here. http://www.koshoelessons.com/faq.html

My problem with Danjo's questioning is the disregard of answers he's been given. This has the appearance of manufacturing artificial arguments.

Danjo, from the picture in your profile you look like a cool guy to hang with. I'd love to get together sometime and have some laughs, spar, or cross train - maybe even buy you a drink. But it's fruitless for me to have a discussion with someone who will not even acknowledge my responses and keep asking the same question.

Oh, and since we're quoting people, I thought I'd quote Doc from a couple of years ago on this same subject. This is in regards to the timeline issue I have been talking about. You now say that I have to prove that Trias didn't meet Mitose?

....

You see?This is what I'm getting at too. I would like more information than simply "The Root Master said it, so it must be fact." I'm open to convincing.

Testimony is evidence. You attempted to disqualify Juchnik's testimony with circumstancial arguments as to how that would not have been possible and I brought circumstantial arguments to say how it would have been. Right now we have more evidence for Trias meeting Mitose in Hawaii than we have against. I have no further evidence so unless you have something else to bring to the table I see no point in further discussion because if you're gonna keep saying the same things you've been saying, I'll say the same things I've been saying. If that's what you want we can save time by reading and re-reading our previous posts until we're both satisfied.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Don,

Thank you for the breakdown. ....

Your welcome. I appreciate your response because Danjo has had me wondering if I was making any sense.

Sounds like you got it at least.

Thanks.

_Don

 

[Danjo]

My last response to Danjo - What contradiction? You've been told in a previous post that the videos are a supplement to not replacement for live instruction.



The link you cited:

Read it, says the same thing.
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check it here. http://www.koshoelessons.com/faq.html

My problem with Danjo's questioning is the disregard of answers he's been given. This has the appearance of manufacturing artificial arguments.

Danjo, from the picture in your profile you look like a cool guy to hang with. I'd love to get together sometime and have some laughs, spar, or cross train - maybe even buy you a drink. But it's fruitless for me to have a discussion with someone who will not even acknowledge my responses and keep asking the same question.



Testimony is evidence. You attempted to disqualify Juchnik's testimony with circumstancial arguments as to how that would not have been possible and I brought circumstantial arguments to say how it would have been. Right now we have more evidence for Trias meeting Mitose in Hawaii than we have against. I have no further evidence so unless you have something else to bring to the table I see no point in further discussion because if you're gonna keep saying the same things you've been saying, I'll say the same things I've been saying. If that's what you want we can save time by reading and re-reading our previous posts until we're both satisfied.

_Don Flatt

It has been said that Kosho has to be felt to be learned. No problem. Then how is it that it is able to be learned via video? That was a fundamental question that "It's a supplement" doesn't answer very well. It started because of the responses that say things like, "You have to see it live in a studio because it can't be put into words" etc. if it can't be put into words, then how can it be put on the internet? The question was never answered, so I kept trying to rephrase it. Sorry if it came off as ignoring you.

Secondly, who's testimony are we referring to as evidence? We know that Mitose started teaching in 1942 before Trias even had rank in the MAs. That is according to both Mitose and Trias' official history. The only one saying differently is Juchnik who wasn't there, In other words, he's making an assertion that is unsubstantiated and apparantly contradicts the know facts. I'm not being obtuse, and I do appreciate the information that's been given so far. I'm trying to nail down the rest of it. Most arts are pretty transparent, so it would be nice to get a pretty decent picture of what goes on in a Kosho class.

If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy, then the practitioners should have the integrity to say so. JKD is only a philosophy and there's no problem with that. If it's a system, then it will have a curriculum (at least a core curriculum that all the schools start with). If the curriculum differs completely from one school to the next, then it's not really a system.

This is a good chance to get this stuff down here, so let's put the egos and esoteric posturing aside and put it out there.

Thanks.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Danjo,

I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15. Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.

Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?


Thanks,
John

 

[kosho]

Danjo,
You asked for a post on testing. I posted a Green belt test That I ( kosho ) hold for my students... That is the written part then a 5 hr Pysical part...Just Wondering what your thoughts where for that test. brown belt is 8 hrs and black belt is a (2) day test. 16 hrs plus a written test also...testing under me is really hard... your thoughts?
yellow 1 hr
orange 1 1/2 hrs
purple 2 1/2 hrs
blue 3 1/2 - 4 hrs
green 5hrs
brown 8 hrs
Black belt 2 day 16 hrs...
Kosho

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Danjo,

Anyone saying that Kosho is a system of martial arts is wrong. It's not a system and Hanshi Juchnik has been very clear about that.

Kosho is a philosophy of more than just martial arts. It's a philosophy that one can live by. Curriculums are different from school to school because Kosho is conceptually based (natural laws) and taught that way. I believe this has been said many times on this website.

I believe I said that the video lessons are good because you can take an idea and work it with a partner to gain an understanding. Of course that's barring any misunderstandings you might get from only seeing it via video. I thought that was a clear answer to your question about video lessons.

I also stated that I think Mitose met Trias after moving from Hawaii to California. And it was at that time Trias talked Mitose into teaching again. I could be wrong and I encourage you to call Hanshi Juchnik to get clarification. Also let's be clear that Hanshi Juchnik hasn't said anything on this forum - only some students of Kosho have.

Also, it seems that you imply that philisophical based arts are less than systemized arts. Is that what you are implying when you say "If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy..."?

Are there any questions that you feel haven't been answered?


Take care,
John

 

[kosho]

Danjo,
The map says you are about 6 hrs from Pat kelly sensei.
He is in Elk grove CA... If you have a weekend away some time Call him and set up a private class with him for some time...He is a great Person and a TOP kosho senior.
I truly know you will not be disappointed
Kosho

 

[tshadowchaser]

A couple of techniques have been mentioned so Danjo would you start by explaining how you where taught Technique number 3 and then hopefuly Kosho-Monk will say where the differences are in the way he dose the technique. After that perhapes we can review technique # 15

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,

I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15. Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.

Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?


Thanks,
John

Aside from #6 and #7 no. I'll type out some descriptions later today.

 

[Benjp]

Most arts are pretty transparent, so it would be nice to get a pretty decent picture of what goes on in a Kosho class.

A typical class in our dojo consists of 4 or more the following (usually 10-15 minutes for each):
kata
waza training (though randoori, described in an earlier post)
history
story telling (koan or legend that applies to what we had learned)
ettiquette
shiatsu
games for developing coordination
sparring
rolling/falling
brushwork
kanji investigations
basics (stances, punching, kicking, blocking)
yoga
the 8 directions jumping, blocking, and stance patterns
weapons training

Is this transparent enough, or do you have specific questions about what I listed?

If Kosho is nothing more than a philosophy, then the practitioners should have the integrity to say so. JKD is only a philosophy and there's no problem with that. If it's a system, then it will have a curriculum (at least a core curriculum that all the schools start with). If the curriculum differs completely from one school to the next, then it's not really a system.

The curriculum does differ form one school to the next. I believe that this is because there are very few Kosho-only trained yudansha and many of the instructors teach the concepts of Kosho through other curriculums. For example, MT username kosho uses SKK to teach Kosho concepts.

However, from what I've seen the base requirements are fairly similar and each teacher has the ability to add more.

This is a good chance to get this stuff down here, so let's put the egos and esoteric posturing aside and put it out there.

Thanks.

I'm not here to boost my ego, only to help. If I'm of no help, please ding my rep with a helpful comment, or post a helpful response.

Thanks,

Ben

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,
You asked for a post on testing. I posted a Green belt test That I ( kosho ) hold for my students... That is the written part then a 5 hr Pysical part...Just Wondering what your thoughts where for that test. brown belt is 8 hrs and black belt is a (2) day test. 16 hrs plus a written test also...testing under me is really hard... your thoughts?
yellow 1 hr
orange 1 1/2 hrs
purple 2 1/2 hrs
blue 3 1/2 - 4 hrs
green 5hrs
brown 8 hrs
Black belt 2 day 16 hrs...
Kosho

My response is "It takes that long to see if someone has green belt skills?" etc. etc.

But I do thank you for the information and we'll see what else we get to compare.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I also stated that I think Mitose met Trias after moving from Hawaii to California. And it was at that time Trias talked Mitose into teaching again. I could be wrong and I encourage you to call Hanshi Juchnik to get clarification. Also let's be clear that Hanshi Juchnik hasn't said anything on this forum - only some students of Kosho have.

John,
What I heard Hanshi say less than two weeks ago was that Trias convinced Mitose to teach in the first place. I'm sure Hanshi Juchnik is aware that Trias was not a martial artist until after he returned from WWII. Juchnik said that Thomas Young had said that Trias knew Mitose before any of his early students did.

Danjo is convinced that since Trias was not a martial artist at the time, he would have no interest in or reason to talk to Mitose. Which makes perfect sense because only Martial Artists talk to other Martial Artists and only another Martial Artist could convince a Martial Artist to begin teaching. Again this point is one I made 1 page ago.

I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?

Just because Trias was not yet a martial artist does not mean he had no interest in martial arts or interest in talking to Mitose. In fact, since we know Trias had later become a martial artist how much more would he have been motivated to talk to Mitose especially if he had somehow learned Mitose was a Martia Arts Master.

Further proof the man is not listening to anything anyone else has to say and Shawn was right.

I know you're tenacious in your attempts at getting guys to go over and over the details of this art, and I'm sure you've read every reply closely and take great pride in watching people try to explain time and again until they've typed their fingers raw hoping you'll get it eventually.

Here is me saying, give it up guys........he doesn't care.

_Don Flatt

 

[tshadowchaser]

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