Kosho Ryu?

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei. Some personal ones made just for me.

Your video collection is certainly larger than mine. I have 51 from Hanshi Juchnik and 6 from Shihan Brown. Pat Kelly & John Evans have videos?


_Don Flatt

 

[marlon]

These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD. If you count all of the variations you come up with 29. I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them. Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.

Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei. Some personal ones made just for me.

Great Book by Hanshi with the katas. Katas I have in my brain.
1-5 Pinan SKK, 1-6 kata SKK, 3 sia forms SKK, 3 staff forms, 2 nun- chuk katas SKK, Pinan 2 from PROF Kimo. Satue of the crane SKK,
North side, south side two man fist set SKK, Hansuki tiger SKK,
SHO TONG KWOK SKK, Circle of the leopard SKK, Pinan Geri SKK,
Off the top of my head this is some of the Shaolin Kempo Karate katas I have. I have Kosho Ryu kempo Katas. Donn F has listed the 29 in the Book. I will list the ones have have down later. But i have about 45 to my current rank.
Kosho

circle of leopard is NCK not SKK

respectfully,
marlon

 

[kosho]

Yes sorry Just got use to hitting the SKK buttons.
Circle of the Leopard is NCK...
Thanks, Kosho

 

[kosho]

Pat Kelly Sensei Has A Set Of Them I Think 8 Out Now. I Have All But 1 I Think I Picked Them Up In Calf: At The Last Gathering.
I Also Paid Him To Make Me A Personal Dvd. He Filled It With A Ton Of Great Kosho Ryu Info...
John Evens Sensei Has A Dvd Out 1 -20 Combinations Teq Skk With Kosho Idears In Them.. Thats A Good Dvd...
I Also Have Personal Ones By John Evans Sensei
He Makes A Great Dvd Set Of Info For You And It Is Made Around Your Needs And What Not... I Have Many From Him...
Ya I Think I Have Every Dvd Hanshi Has Made And If Not Really Close. If I Watched 1 Dvd A Month And Trained That Info It Would Take Me 16 1/2 Years To Go Threw Them All....next Time You Are Up Donn I Will Show Ya...
Best To All,
Kosho

 

[Danjo]

So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata.

For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.

So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?

 

[DavidCC]

So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata.

For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.

So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?

I guess that depends on which Kosho Ryu you mean: The one taught in Hawaii, or the one taught in Fulsom.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

So let me try to summarize here: Kosho Ryu is an art that is comprised of Okinawan and Kyokushin Basics and various Okinawan, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio and Shaolin Kempo kata.

For some mysterious reason, the actual art that Mitose had passed down to him from the previous 20 generations of grand masters is not taught as Kosho ryu, but rather this mixed bag of techniques from various branches of karate and kempo. Even his "Nihano" is a derivitive of an Okinawan kata Nihanchi.

So my question is: Where is the original art? Why are all of these techniques and Kata from different system called Koho Ryu when mixed together like this?

Not quite.

Kosho has it's own set basics and drills. Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club. A few Shuri Te Katas were also added by Hanshi Juchnik to reflect the influence Robert Trias had on him. I think Trias' art was Shuri Te.
NEKO BUTO KATA were developed by Mitose as a tribute to Gojen Yamaguchi. Trias learned Neko Buto from Mitose before the Official Self Defense Club was even started and obviously before Kajukenbo was founded. NaiHano was Mitose's application of Naihanchi to Kosho Principles. As it is also well known that Mitose enjoyed Naihanchi and that is why modern Kosho also studies that one.
The rest of the forms - Ennogyo and Miyama were created by Hanshi Juchnik. I think there were also some other forms that were taught in the syllabus before my time - Dan Ensho, Tensho, Mitose No Keiho, and possible others. As I said before I know very little of those.

The SKK & Cerio Kata that Steve - Kosho listed are part of his backround in SKK.

All of those empty handed Kata reflect material added from Hawai and later. My beleif is that previous to this period Kosho utilized Keiho (shorter drills both 2 man & one man) as opposed to the formal type Kata.

Your post reflects that you beleive all we do is study those Kata. I'm not sure where you got that impression. If it was from me please forgive my failure in communication. In addition to the Kata, we utilize the Keiho I mentioned earlier, Iaido Kata, Jo Kata, & Shiatsu. We are also expected to demonostrate understanding of the concepts and principles of Kosho by applying them to all the tools mentioned before, weaponry, and working with a live partner in a sort of Randori.

 

[Danjo]

Not quite.

Kosho has it's own set basics and drills. Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club. A few Shuri Te Katas were also added by Hanshi Juchnik to reflect the influence Robert Trias had on him. I think Trias' art was Shuri Te.
NEKO BUTO KATA were developed by Mitose as a tribute to Gojen Yamaguchi. Trias learned Neko Buto from Mitose before the Official Self Defense Club was even started and obviously before Kajukenbo was founded. NaiHano was Mitose's application of Naihanchi to Kosho Principles. As it is also well known that Mitose enjoyed Naihanchi and that is why modern Kosho also studies that one.
The rest of the forms - Ennogyo and Miyama were created by Hanshi Juchnik. I think there were also some other forms that were taught in the syllabus before my time - Dan Ensho, Tensho, Mitose No Keiho, and possible others. As I said before I know very little of those.

The SKK & Cerio Kata that Steve - Kosho listed are part of his backround in SKK.

All of those empty handed Kata reflect material added from Hawai and later. My beleif is that previous to this period Kosho utilized Keiho (shorter drills both 2 man & one man) as opposed to the formal type Kata.

Your post reflects that you beleive all we do is study those Kata. I'm not sure where you got that impression. If it was from me please forgive my failure in communication. In addition to the Kata, we utilize the Keiho I mentioned earlier, Iaido Kata, Jo Kata, & Shiatsu. We are also expected to demonostrate understanding of the concepts and principles of Kosho by applying them to all the tools mentioned before, weaponry, and working with a live partner in a sort of Randori.

So Trias and Mitose worked together prior to 1950?

Where I got the impression was that that is one heck of a lot of kata to have to get down before black belt, so it would seem that there would be little time for anything else.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

So Trias and Mitose worked together prior to 1950?

Yes. It's little known but I'm told that Trias is the one who actually encouraged Mitose to teach. According to Young Trias knew Mitose 1st.


_Don Flatt

 

[bakxierboxer]

Not quite.

Kosho has it's own set basics and drills. Bruce Juchnik has added some Kyokoshin Kai Kata for historical reasons as Thomas Young was authorized to use them in the Official Self Defense Club....

I'm not sure when Thomas Young passed on....
In any case, "historical" in the sense that Kyokushinkai was founded in 1964?
Jeepers! that makes me feel "dated".......

In any case, Bruce Juchnik was very definitely "around" "back then", and my Kajukenbo SiFu John Leoning often spoke highly of him.

Pete

 

[Danjo]

Yes. It's little known but I'm told that Trias is the one who actually encouraged Mitose to teach. According to Young Trias knew Mitose 1st.


_Don Flatt

Where does this info come from? This would mean that Trias was in touch with Mitose prior to 1942 and encouraged him to teach? I thought Trias was over seas in 1942. When did Trias open his school? I think it was 1946 in Arizona. So when did he encourage Mitose to start teaching?

 

[John Bishop]

According to Trias, his first introduction to martial arts was in 1942 while stationed in the British Solomon Islands. From there he went to Singapore in 1944. In 1945 he returned to the U.S. and started his school in 1946, in Phoenix Az.
The length and time of his association with Mitose is contraversial at best. One thing that the Trias group and Mitose group can't agree on is the so-called Kosho Ryu crest. This crest appears in later editions of Mitose's book, as well as Trias's book, "The Hand is my Sword". We all know Mitose claims it to be his family's Kosho Ryu crest. Trias claims it to be the crest of Choki Motobu. So, who's crest is it?
Then we have the style names. Mitose first taught his system as "Kenpo Jiu jutsu". Trias first taught his as "Shorei Ryu" karate. Mitose's style name then became "Kosho Shorei Ryu" kenpo. And Trias's system became "Shuri Ryu" karate.
Yes, it is confusing.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

In over a decade of practicing Kosho Shorei Ryu I have come to understand Kosho as having nothing to do with kata or technique. Instead, for me, it has everything to do with understanding the natural laws that govern man's existence.

I can understand how one might view my statement and not get what I am saying. Kosho is one of those studies that is best felt instead of discussed. I believe it is nearly impossible to describe Kosho in words. Words tend to be confusing and can easily mislead a person into thinking the wrong thing.

As far as the historical aspects of the art I can honestly say that I am not 100% sure of all the details. For me that's not so important. I put my focus on the studies of Natural Law and let the historians fight about what happened when.

Do I practice kata? Yep. Techniques? Yep. But only as a means to get to the real knowledge I am after. What is that knowledge you might ask? Come to my dojo or attend a seminar with a competent Kosho practitioner and you will be able to feel it.

In the end you may or may not be impressed. That's ok. I am on my path and you are on yours. Both are great and both are probably lacking something.

I think it's also important to state that Kosho, as I understand it, has more than just martial studies within the practice. Healing arts, meditation, yoga and energy collection are just some of the other non-martial studies. I remind my students to smile many times during class in order to help cultivate a loving-kindness atittude towards themselves and others.

Well, I guess that's enough for tonight. If my words were helpful then I wish to give my teachers the credit for passing along their insights. If I wasn't helpful at all then I'll take the blame.

Warm regards,
John Evans


"When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change." -Dr. Wayne Dyer

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

In over a decade of practicing Kosho Shorei Ryu I have come to understand Kosho as having nothing to do with kata or technique. Instead, for me, it has everything to do with understanding the natural laws that govern man's existence.

...

Do I practice kata? Yep. Techniques? Yep. But only as a means to get to the real knowledge I am after. What is that knowledge you might ask? Come to my dojo or attend a seminar with a competent Kosho practitioner and you will be able to feel it.

Excellent post John. I was trying to convey that Kata is a mere training tool we utilize in Kosho. What's more important is taking the principles and techniques and applying them to the Kata.

Mitose was not known for Kata.

Like I said in my last post I think before Hawaii the self defense portion of the art was trained thru Keiho (Drills) both with a partner and with out. As a student of the art I think I may have an idea what those may have been like but I think the idea has always been to to learn the natural law that you mentioned. It seems that's not what many of Mitose's early students got out of it. From the look of things many took the Keiho and turned them into catalogs of Self Defense Techniques.

Hanshi Juchnik has chosen a different approach and that is his perrogative as Root Master. So rather than telling the student exactly what to do, he gives governing principles, basic technique, and forms to the student then says slow it down, play with it, and discover. Learning from a Self Defense Technique basis is definitely easier when you're starting out because you're being told exactly what to do but the problem arises when asked to react spontaneously. You spend you're beginner and intermediate stages trying to memorize and master the movements of the techniques and the intemediate and advanced stages trying to break out of them.

I've done both approaches. The Kosho approach that Hanshi Juchnik uses is what's best for me.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

Excellent post John. I was trying to convey that Kata is a mere training tool we utilize in Kosho. What's more important is taking the principles and techniques and applying them to the Kata.

Mitose was not known for Kata.

Like I said in my last post I think before Hawaii the self defense portion of the art was trained thru Keiho (Drills) both with a partner and with out. As a student of the art I think I may have an idea what those may have been like but I think the idea has always been to to learn the natural law that you mentioned. It seems that's not what many of Mitose's early students got out of it. From the look of things many took the Keiho and turned them into catalogs of Self Defense Techniques.

Hanshi Juchnik has chosen a different approach and that is his perrogative as Root Master. So rather than telling the student exactly what to do, he gives governing principles, basic technique, and forms to the student then says slow it down, play with it, and discover. Learning from a Self Defense Technique basis is definitely easier when you're starting out because you're being told exactly what to do but the problem arises when asked to react spontaneously. You spend you're beginner and intermediate stages trying to memorize and master the movements of the techniques and the intemediate and advanced stages trying to break out of them.

I've done both approaches. The Kosho approach that Hanshi Juchnik uses is what's best for me.

_Don Flatt

Okay, so now we're back to saying that Kosho Ryu is nothing more than a concept that was passed down through 21 grand masters?

What is meant by "Natural Laws"? While words might mislead, they are, unfortunately, all we have to use on the internet so give it a shot.

"Root Master"? Are you sure that Juchnik wants to be known by that title?

 

[Danjo]

I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Okay, so now we're back to saying that Kosho Ryu is nothing more than a concept that was passed down through 21 grand masters?

It is both concept and application. It's concepts can be applied to anything. During the 1st 20 generations the concepts would have been taught and students would have applied them to that which was available in Japan - which would be Japanese methods of combat both armed and unarmed. What I said in my last post was that previous to Hawaii - Okinawan type Katas were not used. These Kata were introduced in Hawaii, the majority not by Mitose. If you read Mitose's 1st book you will see he talks of Keiho which translates into practice. Mitose talks of Keiho both with and without a partner. It is my beleif that the early students took much of the Keiho Mitose was showing and began cataloging them as Self-Defense Techniques.

What is meant by "Natural Laws"? While words might mislead, they are, unfortunately, all we have to use on the internet so give it a shot.

"Natural Laws" - As in principles to explain that which occurs naturally. In fighting it would be concepts of what makes a movement work or not work. You are correct that words mislead. If you are really curious I suggest you visit a Kosho school, a seminar by Hanshi Juchnik or a Kosho senior, or at least purchase some of Hanshi's DVDs. I recommend you get "Introduction to Kosho".

"Root Master"? Are you sure that Juchnik wants to be known by that title?

Root Master is the translation of the title Hanshi. It is what Juchnik prefers, he does not wish to be called Grand Master although he easily could.

I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.

I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

It is both concept and application. It's concepts can be applied to anything. During the 1st 20 generations the concepts would have been taught and students would have applied them to that which was available in Japan - which would be Japanese methods of combat both armed and unarmed. What I said in my last post was that previous to Hawaii - Okinawan type Katas were not used. These Kata were introduced in Hawaii, the majority not by Mitose. If you read Mitose's 1st book you will see he talks of Keiho which translates into practice. Mitose talks of Keiho both with and without a partner. It is my beleif that the early students took much of the Keiho Mitose was showing and began cataloging them as Self-Defense Techniques.

The problem is that the word Kenpo is the same as "Chuan Fa" in Chinese and is the word for Chinese Boxing. It's not a concept divorced from set techniques. In whatever form Mitose taught, he claimed that what he taught was Kenpo. To say that it's "Kenpo without techniques" seems like logical nonsense. It's like saying that it's an ancient dance without any steps.

"Natural Laws" - As in principles to explain that which occurs naturally. In fighting it would be concepts of what makes a movement work or not work. You are correct that words mislead. If you are really curious I suggest you visit a Kosho school, a seminar by Hanshi Juchnik or a Kosho senior, or at least purchase some of Hanshi's DVDs. I recommend you get "Introduction to Kosho".

I have some of Juchnik's tapes from way back. They weren't especially enlightening. Here's another question: If these things can't be conveyed via words, how does Juchnik justify people learning via his video program? If it has to be felt to be understood, wouldn't this contradict this?

Root Master is the translation of the title Hanshi. It is what Juchnik prefers, he does not wish to be called Grand Master although he easily could.

I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.

_Don Flatt

The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.

 

[kosho]

Danjo

The katas i listed are the ones I have learned in Shaolin kempo karate. The list of katas That Donn listed are some of the kosho Katas
That I have and are learning.

I still teach Shaolin kempo karate in my Dojo, But I also teach Kosho Ryu kempo. I enjoy both Systems of the martial arts.

Kosho Ryu kempo for me is a harder Path. there is more to learn and look beyond.

Kosho literally means old pine tree. Shorei means school of encouragement. A traditional Ryu is a school of thought pertaining to an art form. A Japanese Buddhist priest meditated under an old pine tree around 1235 AD and received enlightenment, as he discovered universal laws and natural principles pertaining to our existence and the resolution of conflict.
The Shaolin Kempo Training Center encourages students to move toward this same enlightenment through studying natural law.

Kempo means Fist Law. This is the Kosho Shorei Ryu form of martial arts. The predecessors of Kempo are Chaun Fa, in China, and before that Vajra Mukrti in India. Kempo's philosophy is to study and understand man's relationship with nature. Kempo is the study of natural law pertaining to mankind. Kempo does not just deal with the physical arts; it also deals with the spiritual side of oneself, and one's ability to better understand yourself and those around you. Kosho is a way of life and an understanding of the process of life. Learning to enjoy the process and the journey of what we are doing is a much forgotten idea in an age when most people are rushing from point to point. Kosho philosophy teaches the student that the most important part of accomplishing a goal is to enjoy and learn from the process we go through to get there.

The controlling arts are used to manipulate and control an opponent without causing them harm, as well as in ways which will damage an attacker. These arts involve the use of the folding arts such as throws, joint locks, holds and pins. They also include non-fatal strikes to the limbs of the attacker to numb and temporarily negating the use of these limbs to strike the defender. The controlling arts would be the main arts used in the context of law enforcement. These arts are used to prevent the opponent from gaining the body posturing and body alignments necessary to effectively continue to attack, and/or subdue him without inflicting permanent injury.

The striking arts are used to control an opponent, or in situation where controlling or escape is not an option, cause destruction to an opponent. In Kosho Ryu, the strikes are broken into two groups, Onna No Atemi (Female Strikes) and Otoko No Atemi (Male Strikes). Onna No Atemi strikes are soft, quick strikes that take place when the attacker is in transition and rotating to hit the defender, thus enabling the defender to have maximum impact and damage on the attacker with a soft, quick strike. The Otoko No Atemi strikes involve the connection of the upper and lower body spheres of rotation, using proper triangulation of movements, muscle groups, and meridians to engage maximum energy in the destructive striking force to a stationed or rotating opponent.

The escaping arts represent the highest form of physical martial art. The escaping arts are practiced in order to teach a student to avoid physical conflict of any type. By understanding natural principles pertaining to eye training, hearing, sensitivity to movement and other things involved in mastering the senses, a student can totally escape from harm, never being touched by a would-be assailant. The cornerstone of the escaping arts is awareness. To teach this, the angles of the octagon are used to familiarize the student with their options of escape. The escaping arts also are the foundation of a student's striking and throwing arts, allowing the student to maneuver to a position where the attacker's follow-up attacks are awkward and difficult, making the defender's striking and throwing techniques more effective and powerful.

A student of Kosho Ryu will be exposed to many different forms of weaponry. The student will study the use of the Jo (4 foot staff), Bo (6 foot staff), Katana (Japanese Sword), as well other weapons of Japan and Okinawa. The student of Kosho Ryu learns that the weapon is an extension of their spirit and is connected to the innermost part of them.


Cultural arts such as Shodo (Brush Calligraphy), the study of Japanese terminology, and the study of history, gives the Kosho Ryu student an understanding of the

Japanese culture from which our art comes from. Shodo is done by the student as a form of meditation as well as for studying the characters of the Japanese language. Shodo is also done by the student as a way of learning to use the center in martial and daily life applications.

Shiatsu (Pressure Point Massage) is taught to the adult student to give them a better understanding of the human body and the energy flow which keeps us healthy. Students learn the meridians of the body and how to massage and correct energy blockages to alleviate symptoms such as headaches, neck and back problems, joint and muscle problems, as well as many other common ailments.

Ok and again there are many other things that come into play in Kosho Ryu kempo... But my hands type no more for now... ALL please enjoy your summer...

kosho

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

The problem is that the word Kenpo is the same as "Chuan Fa" in Chinese and is the word for Chinese Boxing. It's not a concept divorced from set techniques. In whatever form Mitose taught, he claimed that what he taught was Kenpo. To say that it's "Kenpo without techniques" seems like logical nonsense. It's like saying that it's an ancient dance without any steps.

Who said Kosho was concept divorced from technique? I can see from your profile that you study Kajukenbo. Did you read this post by Flying Crane?

Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques. Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.

I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.

The aproach Kajukenbo and Kenpo derived from Chow are unlike those of traditional Chuanfa and Kempo systems. So your comment about logical non-sense seems to be more of an attack. If your purpose is to argue, nitpick, or discredit I have no reason to try to talk to you because you have no interest in learning anything. If you have a genuine interest to understand or learn about another art we can talk because that's why I'm here to learn and discuss.

I have some of Juchnik's tapes from way back. They weren't especially enlightening.

Obviously, since you still have no idea what Kosho is about. You're entitled to that opinion, obviously not shared by a number of people. Perhaps, you approached those videos much like your approaching this discussion. You'll never learn from anything as long as you approach it with arms closed and a scowl on your face. Also, some of the tapes can be hard to understand from the outside as he's explaining one principle but still using hundreds. It would be better to attend a seminar but only with an attitude to learn something - if you just want to criticize don't bother.

Here's another question: If these things can't be conveyed via words, how does Juchnik justify people learning via his video program? If it has to be felt to be understood, wouldn't this contradict this?

What video learning program do you speak of? I'm unaware of any such thing. Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.

The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.

I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy. Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.

_Don Flatt