Kosho Ryu?

[LegLockGuy]

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

 

[LegLockGuy]

By the way... hypodermic needle for the win!

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

 

[John Bishop]

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

Really? Ask this guy:
http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob

Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.

Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".

Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters. And both weaknesses that should be addressed.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Well said, Mr. Bishop.

Sensei Pat Kelly - one of Kosho Ryu's top teachers - said at a recent seminar I attended that he is a martial artist, so that means he trains in all aspects of martial arts. During his "Kosho" seminar we were taught many things from standing up to the ground.

He also said, "I can tap with the best of them!"

He sees the value in all arts and in all teachers. If you ever get a chance to take a class from him it is well worth it.


Warm regards,
John Evans

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

well, it sounds like you have this whole fighting thing figured out........must be all of those hours you spent rolling around in the middle of the road.

thanks for your words of wisdom.

 

[Danjo]

Really? Ask this guy:
http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob

Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.

Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".

Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters. And both weaknesses that should be addressed.

But...but...but...ah never mind. That guy kicked some serious tail and the fight never went to the ground. ---sigh---

 

[Flying Crane]

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

I was attacked by about 5 or so punks on the street, a couple years ago. I kept moving, didn't engage, took the first opening and ran. They couldn't catch me. THAT'S self defense: I got away with no injuries. I didn't get "whooped anyway". If I had engaged in a way that turned into a ground fight, they would have circled me and kicked my head in. Recognize when you are in a bad situation and get the hell out.

If you go to the ground and decide to stick around to "win" the submission, you are approaching the fight with a competition mentality. Maybe you will win, maybe you will lose. Depends on many things.

If you go to the ground and look for effective ways to break away, give a couple of good shots to stop or at least slow him down, then get back on your feet to either continue the fight from there or else simply escape, then you are dealing with the situation with the mindset of self-defense.

Sure, groundwork is important, but not necessarily the ability to grapple and roll for an extended period of time. Rather, a familiarity with groundwork, with the ability to break away and get away is what is important, for effective self-defense.

That isn't to say that more extensive ground game isn't useful or valuable. But it isn't necessarily what is most important in self-defense.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

So maybe I should go to the ground in that crowded club and not worry about getting trampled or someone stomp kicking my head?
...or...
I should see if I can get that gang banger to tap before his homies kick my ribcage in?

I'm not saying one does not need to study grappling - I personally do. I like grappling. I wrestle frequently and occasion a local MMA gym from time to time. I also watch UFC - less from martial arts value and more for entertaining value. I think it's a better sport to watch than boxing.

I even study submissions and locks for two reasons:
1: Studying submissions and locks means not only learning to apply them but also how to defend against them. Just because I will aim to keep from going to the ground does not mean I don't want to know how to get back up if I do end up there. Just because I think submission is not the best option for the street does not mean I don't want to know how to defend against one.

2: Locks make great transitions and set ups for strikes, throws or just plain running away. I think striking and throwing are superior for self defense because they achieve their results quicker. But for true self defense, getting away without harm would be the ultimate goal.

Personally, I've been in about a dozen or so street fights most before I turned 18. Of the 12 or so fights only 2 went to the ground. On both occaisions my opponent tried to tackle me and I used a hip wheel throw that I learned in Judo that ended with me on top with them in a headlock.

The 1st time I was about 13 or 14 and as I was choking the kid out I found myself surrounded by 5 of his friends. Believe me I got up quick! Once up I knew that no matter how hard they hit me I better not go down and I didn't.

The 2nd time a fight went to the ground I was 16 and my opponent found himself in the same choke hold. Before he lost conciousness from the choke he managed to get my arm into his mouth and bit me. Suffice it to say that fight ended on the feet.

LegLockGuy, maybe the street fights you've experienced were just different than mine and that's why we see things differently. Maybe in your neighborhood they only fight on surfaces that won't hurt you if you fall on them. Maybe in your neighborhood they fight until some one taps and when they do the tappee says, "You win. I give up." and means it. Maybe in your neighborhood they won't claw, bite, poke eyes, or break fingers to get out of a choke hold. Maybe in your neighborhood they don't strike to the base of the skull, strike or grab the groin, or knee and kick to the head when you're on the ground. You have a nice neighborhood. Let me know where it is, maybe I'll move there. But then again the officials might not let me in because I don't have a history of fighting that way.

I won't be trying to utilize the triangle choke in the event I'm getting jumped by the Bloods or the Crips and I'll do the best to stay on my feet and get the heck out of there because I know what a Newark Curb Kick is. If I get a gun pulled on me I might use a Kote Gaesh but my objective would not be to get the gun man to tap but rather to take posession of the weapon.

Just trying to make a point.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

I was attacked by about 5 or so punks on the street, a couple years ago. I kept moving, didn't engage, took the first opening and ran. They couldn't catch me. THAT'S self defense: I got away with no injuries. I didn't get "whooped anyway". If I had engaged in a way that turned into a ground fight, they would have circled me and kicked my head in. Recognize when you are in a bad situation and get the hell out.

If you go to the ground and decide to stick around to "win" the submission, you are approaching the fight with a competition mentality. Maybe you will win, maybe you will lose. Depends on many things.

If you go to the ground and look for effective ways to break away, give a couple of good shots to stop or at least slow him down, then get back on your feet to either continue the fight from there or else simply escape, then you are dealing with the situation with the mindset of self-defense.

Sure, groundwork is important, but not necessarily the ability to grapple and roll for an extended period of time. Rather, a familiarity with groundwork, with the ability to break away and get away is what is important, for effective self-defense.

That isn't to say that more extensive ground game isn't useful or valuable. But it isn't necessarily what is most important in self-defense.

You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.

Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.

In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.

 

[MJS]

Yeah, because I wouldn't want to go for a kimura on the steet cause I might get bit by a lava spewing snake that has glass shards for fangs.

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

First off, there is no need to get sarcastic with posts. We're having a good discussion here, and I think everyone would like it to stay that way.

As for the above comments: There is a time and a place for everything. Depending on the situation being presented, that is what determines your response. Is it wise to roll around on the ground? First off, if I landed there the last thing I plan on doing is staying there. I want to get back to my feet. The environmental things you may find on the street are things you shouldn't shrug off. Do I want to roll on the ground in a packed club or bar, as Kosho Gakkusei stated? Will there be room or will the guys friend(s) be kicking me from behind while I try to secure a choke??

As for mult attackers: This is something that should be trained. The idea that you will always be whooped, as you state, is your opinion, not fact. FC made some great points with his post.

Again, lets keep things civil!:ultracool

Mike

 

[RevIV]

Thats a great video clip.(besides someone getting attacked that is). gives me some great ideas for drills in class tonight.

Really? Ask this guy:
http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob

Some standup fighters claim they don't have to learn any grappling because they intend to stay on their feet.

Some grapplers claim they don't need to learn multiple man defenses because "chances are you'll get whooped anyway".

Both excuses for not becoming well rounded fighters. And both weaknesses that should be addressed.

 

[RevIV]

--

 

[Flying Crane]

You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.

Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.

In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.

Absolutely correct. The purpose of the engagement determines a lot of things, including what kind of techniques and what approach to fighting is most appropriate.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

The multiple attacker thing is bogus, if you get attacked by multiple attackers, chances are youll get whooped anyway.

I've found myself facing multiple attackers on 3 different occaisions. On 1 occaision I outran them. On another I dropped 3 guys before they were able to touch me. On the occaision I mentioned in my earlier post I managed to stay standing for what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a few moments until one of my attackers missed me and almost fell into a catch basin and I caught him and pulled him up - then they stopped attacking.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

My brother and I took on four guys together once. They clipped me with their car at a community college back in 1986. He threw his tennis racket through the partially rolled down rear door window and they stopped and got out. They were all pretty big guys. We creamed the first three and the fourth guy, the driver, ran back to his car and I chased him and started punching him out through his window. Well, as luck would have it the college police drove up right then and arrested the lot of us. I couldn't plead self defense because I had chased him etc. It all got reduced to "disturbing the peace" etc.

The whole "No one can deal with multiple attackers" was started by the BJJ guys in answer to that question. In Brazil, ther eis an honor system when two guys decide to fight. No one jumps in and it's considered a disgrace to do so. That might go a ways to explaining why the Gracies were never worried about it.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

You've just underscored the whole idea of "self defense" versus fighting, guarding, protecting, enforcing etc. All have different goals in mind. Self defense is what most people are training for IMO and avoidance and running away at the first opportunity are corner stones of that philosophy. The combat techniques that are employed are going to be used towards that end, i.e., getting away as soon as possible with as little injury as possible. In other words, if you are able to get away with your skin in tact, you win.

Guarding something or someone involves you putting yourself between someone and the object or person you're guarding which is a totally different goal. Tackling them to the ground might well be what is required in order to stop them from getting to the thing or person being guarded. If your client or object is safe at the end, you win.

In enforcement professions such as police work or bouncing, the goal is also different. In those cases, one has to willingly insert oneself into a violent situation and often initiate physical contact with the person. Each goal is going to have overlap with the others in terms of techniques employed, but they will each have different ones also. If the rules are enforced and order is restored, you win.

indeed.

 

[koshonokenza]

Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro

 

[kosho]

Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro

Well said Shihan DiSarro, and I really Enjoyed The lake George Summit this year in new york. I look forward to training with you in Reno NV.
I will have Hanshi Juchnik out for a weekend seminar In Orange Ma the 2nd weekend in December of 2007. I will send you some info if you want ?
Kosho ( S Bonk )

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Welcome to the forum, Tony!

Great 1st post! Pretty much summarizes why I love and somestimes hate Kosho. We need to make plans to get together for another private lesson.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro

Well, afer three years of asking about this, this is probably the single best post on this topic I've ever read. You actually came out and answered the question in a non-evasive, non-defensive manner using logic and thouroughness. Thanks.