Koryu Bujutsu

Brian R. VanCise

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I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu. Some of it I have already seen and read through and others I will definitely add to my library.

Even though I just joined and posted to this post I have followed martial talk since the beginning. Mostly around the Filipino arts. I have found a lot of great information here. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

As for my quest to find out more about Koryo Bujutsu it will continue. I believe that there is a distinct difference between learning the history around certain arts and actually learning the techniques behind the arts. I’m fascinated by the history and think it is important, but for me I'm not concerned about what you call it as long as it works for me and I enjoy it. I've seen these types of discussions in other arts especially when you get to the less common ones like Koryo Bujutsu arts or the Filipino arts. It is like religion or politics and people are sensitive to their opinions.

I do wish everyone the best on their journeys. With most of us here, martial arts has become a way of life and not just a class we show up to a couple times a week. Everyone’s path is different even if at certain points they cross.

Mr. Parker,

While some of the information you provided is interesting your delivery I find offensive. This is just my opinion and doesn't really justify any further long winded posts. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Whether we agree or not is totally irrelevant. With respect I will leave it at that.

As long as you understand that the system you are currently studying ie. Koryu Bujutsu is a modern system and not a Koryu art of Japan.
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The term or name of the system is misleading! Also understand that those practitioner's that do study a traditional Japanese martial art will find it offensive that someone named their system Koryu Bujutsu! Unfortunately it just was not a good decision for the long run! Not much you can do about it but...... just expect to catch some flak and well people will pick it apart here on the internet! Just sayin......
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Chris Parker

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Hi Brian,

I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu. Some of it I have already seen and read through and others I will definitely add to my library.


Glad you could get something out of this.

Even though I just joined and posted to this post I have followed martial talk since the beginning. Mostly around the Filipino arts. I have found a lot of great information here. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

Then let's get things straight, shall we?

This thread had a few observations of Stephen's group, not opinions, observations. Stephen then resurrected it a bit over a month later and made some rather odd and easily countered comments, all of which supported our observations that he is not teaching Koryu. That was pointed out to him, with more observation and other evidence from Stephen's training group itself, and his responce was to reply with a frankly baseless series of attacks against myself with absolutely no connection to the discussion at hand. You then turn up pretty much immediately and defend his attacks, with little to no relevant knowledge of the subject.

The things you claim are in this thread are not seen by anyone else. When asked to point them out, you have not done so. If you had turned up and said "Hey, I train with Stephen, can you tell me what you mean by saying he's not teaching Koryu, cause I don't understand?", then you would have been recieved better. But instead you lectured us on our handling of a topic you don't know.

Now tell me, how was I supposed to take that?

For the record, though, I do accept your apology.

As for my quest to find out more about Koryo Bujutsu it will continue. I believe that there is a distinct difference between learning the history around certain arts and actually learning the techniques behind the arts. I’m fascinated by the history and think it is important, but for me I'm not concerned about what you call it as long as it works for me and I enjoy it. I've seen these types of discussions in other arts especially when you get to the less common ones like Koryo Bujutsu arts or the Filipino arts. It is like religion or politics and people are sensitive to their opinions.


Continuing to learn about Koryu is great, and certainly encouraged. Really, that's what this subforum is for. But here's the thing; the history is one of the things that makes it Koryu, being concerned about it "working" for you is not.

The naming of a system "Koryu" means something. Same as naming a system "Ninjutsu", or "Karate", or even "Samurai martial arts". These words have specific meanings and implications, and those that are serious about these things will always pick up on their misuse.

I do wish everyone the best on their journeys. With most of us here, martial arts has become a way of life and not just a class we show up to a couple times a week. Everyone’s path is different even if at certain points they cross.

No one really argues this point, and honestly I'm not sure why it's needing to be mentioned here. This really isn't a case of "well, they just have a different approach", it's a case of Stephen claiming to be something he's not, whether through ignorance, lack of understanding, or knowingly.

Mr. Parker,
While some of the information you provided is interesting your delivery I find offensive. This is just my opinion and doesn't really justify any further long winded posts. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Whether we agree or not is totally irrelevant. With respect I will leave it at that.

I'm going to suggest re-reading the thread, then, as I've really been incredibly gentle, and kept opinion out of it, sticking to observation and responce to comments (including yours). Honestly, if you've been offended by my delivery, then all it tells me is that my posts struck an emotional cord in you (most likely due to your connection to Stephen and this group), as I was rather deliberately avoiding being offensive the way Stephen was towards me.

When it comes to my "long-winded" posting style, well, you're new here.... I tend to try to put as much as I feel is relevant in each post, so any "long-winded" ones are that way due to what they're answering, and both Stephens and your posts required quite a bit of correction and clarification. And agreeing or not is, once more, besides the point, as I am stating facts, not giving opinions. If you don't know the topic, arguing with those that do and then saying "whether we agree or not" is frankly irrelevant. Stay, learn, ask questions, but recognise who is answering, and take things in that light, not the emotional responce you have so far.

Oh, and Stephen? I've noticed you here reading the thread over the last day or so.... still waiting for that apology.....
 

novamag

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Mr. Parker,

Do you not stop. The apology was not directed toward you but the group. If you look at my posts I never tried to discredit the information provided by anyone. I was pointing out my objections towards the overall tone of the thread and I have tried to do it respectfully. You have tried to slash down everything that goes against your postings and to bring up childish things like spelling errors. Instead of just sticking to the facts. Your posts are littered with jabs and personal insults. Frankly I have very little respect for you and I could care less on what your opinion is of me. Does anyone owe you an apology? Absolutely not. Why should they? Are you man enough to admit your own wrong doings and do the same? Probably not. What I do expect is another useless post littered with jabs, personal insults, videos from youtube, and a couple articles on the web.

Now you are curious about my background and whether I train with Steven or not. Just like you can do a google search on all the links and youtube videos you can certainly google my name. I'm sure you already have. My answer to you is if I have very little respect for you why would I answer your questions?

I fully expect you to respond with more personal jabs and insults. It is what is in your nature to do, so please don't hold back on my account. This will be my last post to this forum, but I do look forward to reading your response. I was even thinking of littering my post with spelling errors just to give you additional ammo. Your responses are very entertaining.
 

Chris Parker

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Mr. Parker,

Oh, boy, this'll be fun....

Do you not stop.

No, not often when such things continue.

The apology was not directed toward you but the group.

Really? Let's check, shall we?

I do apologize if I offended anyone.
(post 21 here)

So that looks to me that you were apologising to anyone who you may have offended by lecturing those who, frankly, know a lot better than you. I actually thought you may be showing some form of decency and it, if not directly refering to me, at least included me. Oh, well.

If you look at my posts I never tried to discredit the information provided by anyone.

Really? From your very first post here:

I'm actually appalled at this thread...


...You guys slammed a school before you knew anything about the school. Someone had a simple question whether anyone has heard of the school. You based your opinions on a couple of websites and a short video. If you knew nothing about the school you should have kept your comments to yourself...



....I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted. The actions of some of the people on this thread where extremely disrespectful to him from the start. He initially merely offered anyone interested in finding more out about the school to stop in and take a class. You guys immediately started trying to discredit him and tear him down. I believe each of you would have the same reaction he did.

So your very first post here was to say that those commenting on the validity of Stephens group as a Koryu group didn't have enough information, and that's not trying to discredit the information provided? And it started by saying how "appalled" you were at the thread (that you were in no way involved in to begin with) in the first place, which immediately puts a negative spin on anything you said about our comments? But you never "tried to discredit"? Right....

I was pointing out my objections towards the overall tone of the thread and I have tried to do it respectfully.

Respectfully by telling us that you were appalled at the presentation of information by people who know what they're talking about, as it goes against the marketing of Stephen's group? Then following that by ignoring the one person who was providing more information than anyone else in the thread? Seriously, that doesn't sound like respect, it sounds like an agenda.

You have tried to slash down everything that goes against your postings and to bring up childish things like spelling errors.

Context is everything, son.

From Stephen:

I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Then from you:

I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted.


My point wasn't that you made a spelling error, that happens to all of us, it was that, remarkably, within a day of Stephen blowing his credibility with his vitriolic post, you turn up, and immediately rush to his defence.... and have incredibly similar posting styles, very similar vocabulary and syntax, even to the point of making the same grammatical error! As I said, if I was being cynical, I'd say you're just a sock puppet for Stephen, a second account for the same user. Your inability to read the thread correctly (Tanaka, in his very first responce to you, did say he didn't think you read the same thread we did) actually fits this, by the way....

Instead of just sticking to the facts.

I have provided nothing but facts, son. There has been no opinion that I have proffered, only observation and fact. I could say just how bad I think Stephen is, based on the video, but instead chose to only point out the errors and displayed examples of poor technique and ability present, rather than conjecture into the rest of his training and teaching time.

Your posts are littered with jabs and personal insults.

Oh, for the love of truth and generosity, find me one personal insult that I have typed! And, when you don't find any, contrast it with the post below from Stephen directed towards me... .pay particular attention to the bolded section (I have kept the entire post save the address and contact details of mine posted at the end).

Chris,

I dont have much time for your bujinkan BS as I have been hearing the same old tired crap for 27 years out of many of the people that hold much higher ranks then you with your little 3rd Dan which by the way is worthless. I could train any decent guy 6 months or less and he would wipe the floor with you and your 3rd Dan knowledge LOL.... :)

I'm surprised with your big mouth they have not given you a 15th Dan. Why I came along is simple because everything you represent is not Koryu Bujutsu in any fashion, shape, form and you are a typical kan joke. I am sure you are able to trick 13 year olds to train in your verson of ninpo but the big boys out here know that everythign you do with a little resistance WON"T WORK...

You are incorrect again when you think you should not test your skills. Contests in Japan were commonplace to prove what you could do... Again typical kan double speak that you spew that we train so we dont' have to use it just to keep the ryu ha alive and in tact.......... blah blah blah BS..

Bujinkan guys like yourself that are not able to fight your way out a paper bag are exactly why these arts have become a joke. I just called you and everything you do a total joke given the typical kan bs you are handing out is right out the kan playbook... You are very confused about everything except the shirt which was done in Takamatsu's hand. However, why I have it I have not revealed so keep guessing....

If I am ever in Australia I would be glad to come down and give yet another little 3rd dan little boy a chance to show me what you can't do.. I expect you to last about 1 min or less and 3 mins +/- if you augmented your training in BJJ.

I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Originally a Student of Nagato Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art form.

By combining the traditional strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu, and adapting it to deal with todays fighting styles, Sensei Roy has developed a comprehensive martial arts program based on the concepts of movement, with less emphasis on perfecting technique.

So let me see if I have this straight.... LOL You guys created your own ryu ha with the vast knowledge gained in Bujinkan. LOL hahahahahah No wonder why they call you the land down under because your brain is downunder as well....

Again, you have no clue about martial arts, no intelligence, big mouth and the very idea that you think you can judge when you have not stepped into a ring with me is very stupid and typical of a ego lead bujinkan ninja wannabe's.

Now, I am done slapping you around...

P.S. Layoff the corrupting the young minds with your worthless ninja BS.. Post what you like but I have exposed your ninja BS..

Stephen

Hmm, that was nearly the entire post.... funny that.

Frankly I have very little respect for you and I could care less on what your opinion is of me.

My opinion of you has never entered into this, but if you must know, I worry about your ability to read properly....

Does anyone owe you an apology? Absolutely not.

See the above post from Stephen and tell me I'm not owed an apology. Here's a clue, if you still say no, then you owe me one too.....

Why should they?

See above.

Are you man enough to admit your own wrong doings and do the same? Probably not.

Point them out. Seriously, point them out. Point out where I insulted anyone, where I gave bad information, where I didn't back anything up (I may note you haven't backed up anything, or answered any question put forth.... ), or so on. I may not have been forgiving with Stephen, but there is no rule that I needed to be. And I really have been very gentle.

What I do expect is another useless post littered with jabs, personal insults, videos from youtube, and a couple articles on the web.

Try again, son. Most of the links I provided were to other threads here that answered your questions (see, I answered what you asked!), in the majority of which I was a major contributor to the information provided, not articles on the web. The Dave Lowry one was the only real article I linked.

The websites and you-tube clips were, surprise surprise, to answer your questions.

Your welcome.

Now you are curious about my background and whether I train with Steven or not. Just like you can do a google search on all the links and youtube videos you can certainly google my name. I'm sure you already have. My answer to you is if I have very little respect for you why would I answer your questions?

No, I haven't googled your name, but I may do that now. Honestly, I'm more convinced that you and "Stephen" are the same person, for a range of reasons. As to why you would answer my questions? Well, let's see, it's a discussion forum, I've answered yours, it gives us an idea as to what information you already possess (correct or otherwise), it shows a willingness to actually discuss things, and a few other reasons. But if you can't be bothered....

I fully expect you to respond with more personal jabs and insults. It is what is in your nature to do, so please don't hold back on my account.

Again, find me these insults that I apparently posted. The only insults in this thread are from Stephen, and these veiled ones from you.

And son, I don't insult, I debate, argue, instruct, educate, inform, and converse. Insults are the domain of someone who has no argument.

This will be my last post to this forum, but I do look forward to reading your response. I was even thinking of littering my post with spelling errors just to give you additional ammo. Your responses are very entertaining.

Glad to entertain you, but frankly you're not looking like you'll be a huge loss. Off you go.
 

yorkshirelad

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When it comes to my "long-winded" posting style, well, you're new here.... I tend to try to put as much as I feel is relevant in each post,
QTF! Some advice for you, when Chris types up one of his Tolstoyesque posts, grad a sandwich, a cup of tea and a few chocie biscuits, get yourself comfy, and read away. It's always better to prepare first.
 

yorkshirelad

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I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu.

This is the thing, what you refer to as Koryu Bujutsu, is not Koryu Bujutsu and calling it Koryu Bujutsu is misleading. Now, I don't know if the creators of the system you train in understood how misleading the name is, but it is non the less.
Maybe if the creators of this art had called it Gendai Bujutsu or Modern Bujutsu, or this discussion was not in 'Koryu corner', there would be no controversy, but refering to your art as Koryu is similar to calling an apple an orange, they are both fruit, but they're not the same and calling one the other is misleading.
 

Saitama Steve

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I lived in Japan for a relatively short time, (A little over a decade) do koryū and have licences in several ryūha. I have experience in a number of ryūha that are comprehensive martial arts (sōgō bujutsu) as well as ryuha that specialize in only one discipline (i.e. Koryū jūjutsu or kenjutsu) I still go back to Japan twice a year to train with my teachers to make sure that there is quality control in the ryuha that I instruct abroad. I'm actually in Japan at the moment training in my chosen ryūha.

After reading through this thread, and especially after viewing the video clip of "koryu bujutsu" posted by Chris Parker on post #9, it is without a doubt that what was being demonstrated was not koryū jūjutsu in any way, shape or form. The techniques may have been taken from some form of koryū, but there is an apparent lack of grounding in many areas; Reihō - Doing a Shintō bow as otagaini-rei is a big no-no; It should only be performed to the kamidana. The orishiki rei in the kata (kneeling rei) - Wasn't very uniformed either.

The taijutsu/jūjutsu demonstrated were almost textbook X-kan techniques, even down to the hand formation of the shutō-uchi.

What was demonstrated on that youtube clip was definately not koryū bujutsu at all. And no, I'm not and was never a member of the X-kans, however I have seen and researched enough, alongside having friends in the above organizations to have a cursory knowledge about the Takamatsu-den arts.
 

Supra Vijai

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Wow... this thread has been awesomely entertaining. I won't post what I originally wanted to as not 1 but 2 moderators have already stepped in and said to behave/not issue challenges. A couple of stand out points if I may? For the record I don't train in a Koryu system, I never have and have never claimed to. Any exposure to Koryu I may have is via youtube, threads on MT and talking to Mr. Parker so hopefully I'm not off base with my questions/comments.

Post 8 - Ad hominem! Textbook examples of logical fallacies littered throughout. Being saved as a text file on my laptop though in case I ever need a good laugh while at work or uni... Almost drove off the road from laughing so hard on the way home from training tonight as another student read it out loud

Post 10 - The video clip: is it just me or is the ukemi somewhat... lacking? I know my ukemi could stand a lot of improvement but really? Where are the breakfalls? The "head hunter" round house was GOLD though :D

Post 19 - This one's for you Mr. Parker... they really tried to pass off Katori kata as their own? How have they not all been killed in their sleep (or with some tea) by ninja assassins?? I'd hate to see the area of Budo hell reserved for that kind of sacrilege...
 

Koryu Rich

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The taijutsu/jūjutsu demonstrated were almost textbook X-kan techniques, even down to the hand formation of the shutō-uchi.

What was demonstrated on that youtube clip was definately not koryū bujutsu at all. And no, I'm not and was never a member of the X-kans, however I have seen and researched enough, alongside having friends in the above organizations to have a cursory knowledge about the Takamatsu-den arts.

Agreed Steve.

The whole thing screams x-kan influenced and the attitude shown by certain people representing that Dojo is appalling for anyone who claims to be linked to a Koryu.

Yes everyone has their faults, we all make mistakes, and nobody is perfect but you bloody well make sure your conduct isn't unbecoming and doesn't reflect poorly on your "family".
 

Aiki Lee

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There is nothing listed in anything about them on-line that indicates that there is any koryu school or instructor involvement at all. My opinion is that it is a group of folks that like the idea of training in a koryu art far more than the reality of actually searching out and joining a koryu school. They have no real idea what the koryu really are, or how totally different what they are doing is from actual koryu training.

I too get this impression.
 

Aiki Lee

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...apparently I should have read the whole thing before agreeing with a comment that I thought wouldn't have actually been backed up by the hateful attacks on Chris and any whom seem to agree with him.

I doubt these people will apologize. Their egos are injured and wounded pride hurts more than any other wound.

But Chris does deserve an apology, as despite the constant attacks on his character he has managed to keep what others on the internet freely surrender.

Integrity.
 

teekin

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Chris my dear, I have to find you a forum where you get to take the gloves off. You are far far too politic with these 'people', . . . . yahhh, I'm Not calling them men.

Lori
 

gregtca

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HEY,
i live down under , so leave Australia alone you w****r,

greg
 

Stealthy

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I think much better titles for the knock off Koryu schools would be to draw on Historical Japanese Provincial names for inspiration, you know, something like "Tosa Ryu Bujutsu".

Much more appropriate, don't you agree?
 

Supra Vijai

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I think much better titles for the knock off Koryu schools would be to draw on Historical Japanese Provincial names for inspiration, you know, something like "Tosa Ryu Bujutsu".

Much more appropriate, don't you agree?

Maybe but Stealthy, that implies a knowledge of Japan, the culture, the history and in some cases, the actual art!

Surely if you had all of that, one would have enough respect for it all and wouldn't start a "knock off" Koryu?...
 

Sanke

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Maybe but Stealthy, that implies a knowledge of Japan, the culture, the history and in some cases, the actual art!

Surely if you had all of that, one would have enough respect for it all and wouldn't start a "knock off" Koryu?...

Yeah, the kind of people who make these 'knock off' systems really wouldn't be the type to have enough knowledge to cone up with a name like that.
And really, why would they?
Anyone who's going to examine a system closely enough to find out how legitimate it is, isn't going to be fooled by a fancy name. It wouldn't hold up for long anyway.
The people who would be drawn in probably don't really care what it's called, so long as they can say they train in a super secret, ancient martial art, that could totally kick your art's ***.
 

Koryu82

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Hi everyone.. First and foremost I am glad I found a discussion group that could possibly help me in finding some training in a Koryu martial art. I currently reside in Virginia. I have bounced around from Dojo to Dojo in search of something not really knowing what I am in search of. I have done a good deal of research on Taijutsu and found I am torn between the Jinenkan and the Genbukan organization's. Any feed back on these two? Also does any one know whom, if any one that is training these arts in Virginia specifically Richmond and surrounding areas( I am looking for true Kobudo, nothing watered down). Any help is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Christan Smith
 
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