knife defense??

[naneek]

how would you deal with a knife attack using wing chun? if anyone has links to video clips it would be appreciated too.

 

[theletch1]

Try this one out.

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[mook jong man]

Having trained in Kali Illustrissimo and to a lesser extent Krav Maga i believe their knife defences are superior to Wing Chun knife defences . Now before you all start jumping up and down i definitely believe the training i recieved in chi sau helped me become good at the defences from the other arts.

I do believe the Wing Chun defences can work against the average knifer ie: someone untrained with a knife if you have speed and aggression . I will start off by saying what was taught to me .

• run.
• if you cant run pick up something yourself like a chair , now you have 4 arms instead of 2.
• dont have a normal wing chun guard on , your fingers will get sliced off, bring your hands back into loose fists up near your throat , elbows in , back of the forearms facing the attacker.
• if its a static knife threat chest to throat level close range get your hands up in a pleading gesture close to the knife and then suddenly side parry the knife arm and grab the wrist in a death grip and start striking, i prefer palm strike followed by elbow to the sternum.
• if its a static knife threat with the knife being threatened at the stomach and your caught with your hands down , you can pivot and smash his knife arm with your low bong sau, grab his wrist with your other hand and side slash him in the throat.
• If you use enough force in your pivot most times the knife goes flying out of their hands , you have to be willing to gamble your speed against their reflex . After a lot of practice and telling people to stab me as soon as i move i was able to complete the technique before they knew what had happened.
• if you a have a little warning that he is going to use the weapon and there is no other way out of it make sure you maintain distance so that if he strikes he has to lunge in and commit himself.
• get off the line of the attack by stepping in at 45 degrees but so that you are still facing him , you can practice on a pole or draw some lines on the ground with chalk.
• if its a straight stab to the throat or face step in off the line of the attack with a side parry or tan sao ,keep contact with his arm and change your parry or tan sao into a death grip on his wrist then start striking.
• if its a over head stab you can step inside him at 45 degrees with a dai sau and palm strike then your dai sao comes down turning into a grab on his bicep, latch his arm down , pivoting and elbow striking at the same time. Also you can step outside his arm and intercept with a reverse tan sao and execute your follow ups from there.
• if the stab comes in chest to gut level you can step in 45 degees outside his knife arm intercepting with your garn sao this is a good one because it covers a wide area . As soon as you intercept flip both your hands around so that your top hand is grabbing his arm from the top and your bottom hand is grabbing from the bottom.
• Normally in wing chun we dont grab with the thumb around some bodies arm because its too slow to disengage and strike but against knives we make an exception. Grab his arm as hard as you can and kick the absolute crap out of his legs with low heel kicks , hook kicks and stamp kicks chain kicking style if he is still standing sweep his nearest leg out by smashing the back of his calf out with your heel and throw him on his head or back hard.
• this next one takes a bit more skill ,when he comes in with the stab to chest or gut level you side step 45 degrees taking out his knee with a low side kick as he goes past , your hands are in the dai bong position to cover you (one arm in dai sau, the other hand in a low bong sau, usually the low bong sau makes contact with the knife arm helping to deflect as you are going past.
• some one slashing from side to side say for arguments sake slashing at your gut either pounce straight in and meet it with your chit sao (think blade of the arm down low like first movement of sil lum tao and counterstriking at the same time. Or step back a couple of inches out of range and let it go past then immediately charge in hitting him like a truck hurting his arm with your garn sao then follow up as need be.
• there are a couple more fancy ones where from the garn sau you latch them and turn the knife back in on themselves and stab them with their own knife but i think the simpler you keep it the better.
• do i think they would work against a trained knife man , no. My kali illustrissimo master would carve me up like a leg of lamb but against average people they would work very well as long as you are fast and aggressive and adhere to basic principles such as getting off the line of attack , immobilising the weapon arm and hitting with good powerful techniqes like elbows ,palm strikes , slashes to the throat , low knee strikes and kicks to the legs.

 

[brocklee]

^^^ Nice post

I'd pull out my knife and hope my escrima is better then his

 

[arnisador]

Heh, sounds like a good plan to me! I think Wing Chun isn't bad for knife defense but I do think the FMAs have a lot to offer, and WC and FMAs fit very well togetehr anyway!

 

[naneek]

thanks for the usefull replys guys, with the increase in stabbings and crime involving knives i just wanted to get some info that might help me deal with this, do you think it might be worthwhile training a FMA to get a better grip on knife defense? thanks again for the great posts:ultracool

 

[arnisador]

I would say yes. The FMAs do have something special to offer where knife defense is concerned, and you can get some useful insights quickly.

 

[geezer]

Having trained in Kali Illustrissimo and to a lesser extent Krav Maga i believe their knife defences are superior to Wing Chun knife defences . Now before you all start jumping up and down i definitely believe the training i recieved in chi sau helped me become good at the defences from the other arts.

I do believe the Wing Chun defences can work against the average knifer ie: someone untrained with a knife if you have speed and aggression . I will start off by saying what was taught to me .

• run.
• if you cant run pick up something yourself like a chair , now you have 4 arms instead of 2....
  
• dont have a normal wing chun guard on , your fingers will get sliced off, bring your hands back into loose fists up near your throat , elbows in , back of the forearms facing the attacker.
• do i think they would work against a trained knife man , no. My kali illustrissimo master would carve me up like a leg of lamb but against average people they would work very well as long as you are fast and aggressive and adhere to basic principles such as getting off the line of attack , immobilising the weapon arm and hitting with good powerful techniqes like elbows ,palm strikes , slashes to the throat , low knee strikes and kicks to the legs.

Pardon me, but I just had to quote you and put some of my favorite parts in bold type. Your whole post was great, but for people like me who have a short attention span, I picked a few key points. Allow me to explain...

First, as a WT guy, no offense taken. Kali Ilustrisimo damn well ought to be better at dealing with knives. That's what you guys are all about. Last Spring I watched John Jacobo give a little demo at an FMA gathering. His "Ilustrisimo" was the best thing I saw that day. By contrast, the techniques shown in the videoclip above, while they did show good off-lining and aggression, seemed quite unrealistic. The guy with the knife was way too clumsy and obvious. Against a fast, determined, attack with repeated stabs and cuts, I wouldn't count on that defense!

As far as your points go, I really like the run defense.

I also like picking up stuff and throwing it, or if it's something bigger, like a chair, hitting with it. We do a fair amount of practice with improvised objects. It's amazing what evil you can manage with everyday objects, once you adopt the correct frame of mind and practice a bit.

And, you were right on the money about modifying,"the normal Wing Chun guard"... Don't face a knife wielder assuming a bad stereotype of everything people criticise about WC/WT. Don't stand in a static, "character two adduction stance" with your hands out, thinking you can parry the knife and charge up the center! Be mobile, evasive, and be nasty, really nasty. And if you get through it, try to contain the bleeding, get to the emergency room, and remember to save all the pieces. They can do miracles with modern surgery. (Not Laughing out loud).

 

[mook jong man]

Geezer i didn't put that video up , i havent watched it, what art is it supposed to be .

Although i agree with you when people train against knife they always seem to do big telegraphed strokes and hold their arm out there so the guy can do his technique you never see people showing how its really going to be when the guys got a hold of your shirt with one hand and pumping stabs into your neck and chest like a piston.

It was purely by luck that i got into illustrisimo my friend asked me to go a long and it was only 10 mins from my place turns out it was Ray Floro and he taught us in his garage , he,s a great guy . I still love Wing Chun and it is my core system its just that i learned a couple more tricks to add to it.

 

[arnisador]

Against a fast, determined, attack with repeated stabs and cuts, I wouldn't count on that defense!

I've been doing the FMAs for a long time. Against a fast, determined attack, I wouldn't count on any defense!

Note that I didn't add "trained" in there. Even an untrained knifer can do a lot of damage (as we see so often in the news), and if you're trained it only helps so much. Going empty hand vs. the knife is playing boxing against someone who only has to play tag.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Exceptional post by Mook Jong Man. Sometimes you have to admit that certain arts are better at dealing with certain situations. That is just the way it is. It is very irresponsible to say that wing chun is better than otehr arts at what they do. If I was told I had to fight a guy with 14 oz gloves in a ring, I would train boxing or MT. If I was told that I had to fight a guy on the floor, I would train BJJ.

I think what we have to realise is that a fight can happen anytime anywhere. You need an art that can fare okay at most situations. Whilst I still believe strongly that wing chun has a weakness on the ground, the fact that you can hit hard and utilize chi sao will give you a fighting chance. Knife defence is horrible as in normal training we deal with fists and confrontations and how not to freeze up. Yet a knie brings all that back as it is a very visual thing. If a person puts a knife or gun in your face, your first reaction is fear. Getting over that is near imposible. One of my friends trains knife defence all the time and still says he has that fear whenever he has been attacked

I rarely train knife defence to students as al it does is give them a desire to try and be a have a go hero (which often leads to death). For my more advanced students I train hard aggressive training, where they do not stop hitting the guy until he is on the floor and not moving. It is often known as teh 30 second aggression rule.

For the die hard chunners - you can also grab the attackers knife arm loosely and relaxed. Whenever he pulls back you can go with him, accompanied by a strike of your choice.
This is a bit more risky but it does work. You just have to capture the centre line and not grip too tight or he will slip out. It is very similar to chi sao but you are utilizing clinchwork

 

[naneek]

thanks again guys. you all bring up some important thoughts and ideas, i think i will look up a fma just for the knife aspects of it by the way what is the difference between arnis and kali and escrima or are they just variations on a theme sort of like all the different forms of karate ( sorry karateka not trying to generalise karate but can think of no better way to put it!!)

 

[geezer]

...by the way what is the difference between arnis and kali and escrima or are they just variations on a theme

I applaud your decision to investigate the FMAs for an insight int blade work. And, for blades, Kalis Illustrisimo is one good place to start. The Ilustrisimo teacher I watched began his discussion of knife work with precisely the same scenario Mook describes above, a guy charging you, grabbing you and "pumping stabs into your neck and chest like a piston." I'm currently training in a system called "DTE" (Direct Torres Eskrima) which is also excellent, but not widely available.

As far as the choice of names such as Eskrima ( also Escrima or Esgrima) Arnis (or Arnes), and Kali (also Kalis)...a lot has already been posted on this, but basically, the terms are pretty arbitrary. Whatever differences they may have once implied, they are not used consistently to describe the differences between different FMAs as they are taught today. Masters have even changed from using one name to another to describe the same system. So, it's up to you to investigate and observe what's being taught to see if it meets your needs, whatever it's called. Good luck!

 

[naneek]

thanks for the advise and encouragement, when looking up arnis i had no luck in my area but i will try kali and escrima next

 

[Gordon Nore]

I've been doing the FMAs for a long time. Against a fast, determined attack, I wouldn't count on any defense!

Note that I didn't add "trained" in there. Even an untrained knifer can do a lot of damage (as we see so often in the news), and if you're trained it only helps so much. Going empty hand vs. the knife is playing boxing against someone who only has to play tag.

Well said. I've trained in knife defenses in HKD. My stuff is OK against average Joe wielding a knife provided maybe that he showed it to me first and said he wanted to cut me. My son is a Kali guy, and there's no doubt his stuff is way better. However, I operate from the point of view that a determined attacker will cut you.

As for the clip above, I would have liked to see more attacks at full speed. I like the guys footwork and his block, I'm not so big on moving in to do the elbow strikes unless he has control of the knife hand, or the knife is on the ground.