Centerline Theory and Wing Chun Mindset: Where it works and doesn't?

[Danny T]

I once wrote an article published by the the now defunct journal of Asian Martial arts
titled- Defending the Mother line.

An informative short read. Thank you for referring it.http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/defending_the_motherline.pdf

If anyone may be interested
http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/defending_the_motherline.pdf

 

[Danny T]

^^^^^ But Joy is likely to tell us we have an incomplete and superficial understanding of centerline.

I may but non the less it is what my understanding is at this time. I continue to research, practice, and develop. In doing so I may well gain a deeper understanding. I've never claimed to have all the answers. I know and understand what I know and understand. We all have different perspectives and that is ok.

 

[Vajramusti]

I may but non the less it is what my understanding is at this time. I continue to research, practice, and develop. In doing so I may well gain a deeper understanding. I've never claimed to have all the answers. I know and understand what I know and understand. We all have different perspectives and that is ok.

------------------------------------------------
ok for sure

 

[Juany118]

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I dont think that you have an integrated understanding of wing chun. Good integration of wing chun means that the person
can use the environment- space, time, angles, distance, understanding velocities to control the situation, the knife holder and the knife.Of course there are risks in encounters.And each encounter has some unique variables. But the skill of the wing chun person is the key variable.
Ip Man has faced a knife, so has WSL. so have several of HKM's students.Many others have not.

Others can use FMA etc.. but that is not my cup of tea-ina wing chun forum.I dont expect you to agree with me and that is ok.

Again you are talking about stuff we understand and really what you say amounts to providing the general theory of the art without giving constructive analysis of the OPs issue. The OP stated that he had a specific problem addressing a specific drill. A couple options, among countless options, were given in order to address a specific issue, to open the mind. Addressing a knife is very different than addressing empty hands.

Simply responding the way you isn't actually constructive in pointing out the difference and then pointing out the direction the mind has to turn to in order to address the different dynamics.

 

[Juany118]

Core of the body = motherline, this is the center of the body head to floor
Center line or center plane = imaginary plane derived from the motherline through the center of the chest forward.
Central line = the line from my motherline to my opponent/s's motherline.

This is my understanding.

Yeah I remember reading one person say that they think the founders of Wing Chun wanted to play a joke and confuse us with using the term centerline to refer to 3 different things.

The only thing I would, add, because a couple people have already made the mistake on this thread, is that the centerline plane does not have to connect with the opponent "nose to nose", it connects to their core regardless of whether we are on a flank or to the rear.

 

[Danny T]

Yeah I remember reading one person say that they think the founders of Wing Chun wanted to play a joke and confuse us with using the term centerline to refer to 3 different things.

LOL.

The only thing I would, add, because a couple people have already made the mistake on this thread, is that the centerline plane does not have to connect with the opponent "nose to nose", it connects to their core regardless of whether we are on a flank or to the rear.

It connects to the opponent's core when using facing no matter where you are.
A wing chun person can attack the core along the central line when not using facing.

 

[KPM]

An informative short read. Thank you for referring it.

If anyone may be interested
http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/defending_the_motherline.pdf

Yes. A good article. I remember reading this when it first came out. It appears Joy has made a constructive contribution to this thread in spite of himself!

 

[KPM]

If your understanding is as I stated, what constitutes 'attacking the core'?

From a Wing Chun perspective, I see attacking the core as focusing a strike into the motherline of the opponent, or moving through the motherline of the opponent with your footwork. I see now that you have referred to manipulating an arm as also attacking the core. While I agree with this in essence, I don't think it is how most Wing Chun people would view it. After all, any Jiu Jitsu or Chin Na technique ever devised also "attacks the core" because they are going to off-balance the opponent in some way and make him move his motherline. Every Judo throw or Silat sweep is also "attacking the core" for the same reason. So really, seen from such a broad perspective, there are very few techniques that wouldn't "attack the core."

So focusing on the weapon arm to control it while off-balancing the opponent in some way definitely attacks the core. But it is indirect.

Unless I have misunderstood what you mean by "attacking the core"?

 

[KPM]

I may but non the less it is what my understanding is at this time. I continue to research, practice, and develop. In doing so I may well gain a deeper understanding. I've never claimed to have all the answers. I know and understand what I know and understand. We all have different perspectives and that is ok.

Oh yes! I agree with you! But then again, you aren't the one whom Joy has said doesn't have a "full understanding of centerline" and that does not have a "integrated knowledge of Wing Chun" or said that an explanation of dealing with a knife is just "noise." So evidently not everyone here believes that "different perspectives are ok."

 

[Juany118]

Oh yes! I agree with you! But then again, you aren't the one whom Joy has said doesn't have a "full understanding of centerline" and that does not have a "integrated knowledge of Wing Chun" or said that an explanation of dealing with a knife is just "noise." So evidently not everyone here believes that "different perspectives are ok."

I think the problem is some people get wrapped up in theory and philosophy. What can happen when this happens?

A person noted hey have having an issue countering a specific kind of attack. It appears the issue is with the person's mindset so someone posts a single alternative simply because that alternative is representative of the mindset change needed. It is not THE solution, simply a single representation.

This however gives a person wrapped up in the philosophy a problem because it is, for lack of a better term, using the KISS principle. Sure one could have gone on for paragraphs about all the different methods, or given no concrete assistance and just written philosophical noise. However neither of these is helpful. Sometimes all need to say is "why don't you try widening your foot work and 'chase' the blade" as both are consistent with WC philosophy and techniques exist to do so. Sometimes to see all of the various possibilities all it takes is to see one to turn on the light bulb.

What kills me is his only issue appears to be with semantics, how suggestions were made, because he said this...

..Wing chun involves among many other things-body unity, timings, footwork repertoire,great alertness, focus and adaptaion tocircumstances.

These aren't Wing Chin principles these are Generic Martial Arts principles. I really don't understand his line of logic at all because as much as he is arguing some don't understand Wing Chun he hasn't actually noted anything that is particular to Wing Chun.

While I don't know him I am sure he is knowledgeable but I simply see his arguments on this thread, to this point, to be unconstructive and simply looking to argue and I don't know why

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I could be misinterpreting things....and it may even be something that Joy doesn't realize or recognize himself.....but it sure seems lately that anytime I have posted something on various threads he feels the need to make a comment implying that I don't know what I am talking about and don't really understand Wing Chun. You may think I am paranoid. But all you have to do is look up his posts on his profile page and see how many of them have been negative responses to something I have posted.

 

[Juany118]

^^^^ I could be misinterpreting things....and it may even be something that Joy doesn't realize or recognize himself.....but it sure seems lately that anytime I have posted something on various threads he feels the need to make a comment implying that I don't know what I am talking about and don't really understand Wing Chun. You may think I am paranoid. But all you have to do is look up his posts on his profile page and see how many of them have been negative responses to something I have posted.

If that is the case there is always a motive. At first blush a possible motive would be the back and forth on the thread regarding learning Martial Arts from videos?

 

[Vajramusti]

I may but non the less it is what my understanding is at this time. I continue to research, practice, and develop. In doing so I may well gain a deeper understanding. I've never claimed to have all the answers. I know and understand what I know and understand. We all have different perspectives and that is ok.

-------------------------------------------- Danny comes from a good Jiu Wan background if memory serves.
I have not criticized Danny's posts.

 

[KPM]

If that is the case there is always a motive. At first blush a possible motive would be the back and forth on the thread regarding learning Martial Arts from videos?

No. That was just one of several. It started before that. Not sure what the motive is. Joy seems to have something against me I guess. It may be because I have chosen to study other arts than Wing Chun. So I am a "defector" from the family.

 

[Danny T]

From a Wing Chun perspective, I see attacking the core as focusing a strike into the motherline of the opponent, or moving through the motherline of the opponent with your footwork. I see now that you have referred to manipulating an arm as also attacking the core. While I agree with this in essence, I don't think it is how most Wing Chun people would view it. After all, any Jiu Jitsu or Chin Na technique ever devised also "attacks the core" because they are going to off-balance the opponent in some way and make him move his motherline. Every Judo throw or Silat sweep is also "attacking the core" for the same reason. So really, seen from such a broad perspective, there are very few techniques that wouldn't "attack the core."

So focusing on the weapon arm to control it while off-balancing the opponent in some way definitely attacks the core. But it is indirect.

Unless I have misunderstood what you mean by "attacking the core"?

My understanding of wing chun is all actions are to attack the core in some form or fashion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there are very few techniques that wouldn't "attack the core."

Agree! If you don't attack the core, where else will you attack? If "centerline" = "attack the core" then all MA systems are using that principle.

 

[KPM]

My understanding of wing chun is all actions are to attack the core in some form or fashion.

Ok. Then like I said....ALL techniques that disturb the opponent's balance in some way could be seen as "attacking the core." So that designation begins to lose any kind of special meaning.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is "attacking the core".

You

- push your opponent's neck (the core) down, and
- kick his legs (the core) off the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To say that

- a punch on the nose (center of the body) is "attacking the core", but
- a punch on the heart (not at the center of the body) is not "attacking the core",

will make little sense.

IMO, to attack on the

- core may force your opponent's body to move back.
- non-core may force your opponent's body to spin.

Both will have purposes. Unless you believe that the WC "centerline" theory is not to allow your opponent's body to "spin". If that's the case, you still cannot prevent your opponent's core from shifting to the side.

 

[Juany118]

My understanding of wing chun is all actions are to attack the core in some form or fashion.

I think KPM is asking is do you mean one must directly attack the core or is displacing someone also counts. As an example someone is coming with a knife, you manage to control the limb with Chin-Na, then take them down to the ground by whatever technique. You clear have attacked their "center" because they are now on their butt or face BUT you did not directly attack their core with a strike. KPM can correct me if I am wrong on this point.