Empty Hand & Knife

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
On another recent thread it was stated that Wing Chun "is all about defending against a blade" and that Wing Chun assumes the striking hand is holding a knife. I don't see it that way at all. But would you guys care to elaborate?

This came out of my statement that FMA empty-hand methods were derived from defending against a knife and their techniques and strategies reflect that. I don't see this in Wing Chun at all.

FMA starts with the weapons. The empty-hand methods are secondary and derived from the weapons methods. Wing Chun starts with empty hands and the Wing Chun double knife/sword methods are said to be derived from the empty hand methods. To me Wing Chun is designed to defend against another guy doing empty-hand fighting. The directness reflects this. Chi Sau reflects this.

If you look at FMA empty-hand methods, there is much more emphasis on striking and controlling the attacking limb, because it is always assumed that limb is holding a knife. Hence you see "guntings" or "limb destructions." You see multiple beat parries or deflections aimed at just one limb. You see angling and really directing and controlling the attacking limb.

In contrast, Wing Chun is much more direct. Once you have deflected a punch you go right in to strike the opponent. Because a redirected punch that has spent its energy is no longer a threat. Sure you might control at the elbow, use positioning, etc. But we don't go out of our way to ensure that the attacking limb is immobilized. Because, again, once a punch has spent its energy it is no longer really a threat. However, a hand holding a knife is entirely different because that knife can still cause major damage if it is not completely controlled.

So I would be interested in hearing how you guys see Wing Chun empty-hands as being all about defending against a knife! Because, honestly, I've seen Wing Chun people show actual "empty-hand vs. knife" technique videos that would be pure suicide against anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of how to really use a knife.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
Does any of it really work? If any situation demands escaping the situation unarmed on knife would be it.

Otherwise where do you think the weakness lies in the wing chun method of unarmed vs knife?
 
OP
K

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Does any of it really work? If any situation demands escaping the situation unarmed on knife would be it.

Otherwise where do you think the weakness lies in the wing chun method of unarmed vs knife?

The weakness lies in people that don't know how to use a knife (and I'm talking about a tactical folder and not a Wing Chun short sword!) making up techniques that THEY think would work against a knife attacker. You really need to train with a knife to understand how to realistically defend against a knife.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
There is a conspiracy theory that the entire wing chun system is all about blades. It is not, obviously, for reasons stated above, and others. It has a double knives set. That is all.
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
The weakness lies in people that don't know how to use a knife (and I'm talking about a tactical folder and not a Wing Chun short sword!) making up techniques that THEY think would work against a knife attacker. You really need to train with a knife to understand how to realistically defend against a knife.
"The weakness of the wing chun method of unarmed vs knife is people that don't know how to use a knife."
That is not a weakness of the method that is a weakness of those people, their training, and how they practice.
Now I agree many of those I have encounter over the years in WC don't really understand bladed work. (can also be said of most everyone I have encounter in all the martial arts)
And to really understand bladed work you must train with a knife and train against persons who also know & understand edged weapons. And I'm talking about pocket folders, tactical blades, combat blades, bowies, and larger as well - straight and curved blades.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
"The weakness of the wing chun method of unarmed vs knife is people that don't know how to use a knife."
That is not a weakness of the method that is a weakness of those people, their training, and how they practice.
Now I agree many of those I have encounter over the years in WC don't really understand bladed work. (can also be said of most everyone I have encounter in all the martial arts)
And to really understand bladed work you must train with a knife and train against persons who also know & understand edged weapons. And I'm talking about pocket folders, tactical blades, combat blades, bowies, and larger as well - straight and curved blades.

It is ridiculous to suggest that wing chun is all about knives when knives are the last form, were added to the system late, and run counter to many of the methods and principles developed in the earlier part of the system.

If wing chun was a knife system then you would see knives early and often, not late and rarely. It is an empty hand system that takes a lot more from spear and pole than it does from knives.
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
There is a conspiracy theory that the entire wing chun system is all about blades. It is not, obviously, for reasons stated above, and others. It has a double knives set. That is all.
"conspiracy theory"
That would be a theory and plan made up in secret by some people to do something harmful or illegal with the entire wing chun system. Notify the WC policy makers immediately!!
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
It is a theory apparently popular on internet forums where people can talk with no consequences but rarely or never seen in the real world. It is a conspiracy theory (real usage, not dictionary definition)
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,553
Reaction score
538
... But would you guys care to elaborate?

Sorry, traveling today, but quickly...it is simply a training mindset, an awareness.
And yes, I am also talking about knives other than the BJD...
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
It is ridiculous to suggest that wing chun is all about knives when knives are the last form, were added to the system late, and run counter to many of the methods and principles developed in the earlier part of the system.

If wing chun was a knife system then you would see knives early and often, not late and rarely. It is an empty hand system that takes a lot more from spear and pole than it does from knives.
Ok.
There is a FMA system which is a bladed system that until being brought to the U.S. the bladed aspect wasn't taught until after learning most all of the footwork, having a high level of understanding of empty hand work, and most of the stick work. The master who brought it to the U.S. and since to many other areas of the world trained in the system under the head of the system for almost 10 years before using a blade. Based upon that his system is not about the blade. Yet it is.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
Ok.
There is a FMA system which is a bladed system that until being brought to the U.S. the bladed aspect wasn't taught until after learning most all of the footwork, having a high level of understanding of empty hand work, and most of the stick work. The master who brought it to the U.S. and since to many other areas of the world trained in the system under the head of the system for almost 10 years before using a blade. Based upon that his system is not about the blade. Yet it is.

Stick work. Does wing chun have this?
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Stick work. Does wing chun have this?
Did not say anything about wc having a stickwork component.
It was mentioned as a example of something being taught prior to edged weapons withing the FMA system I was referring to. It was in reference to your statement about wc not having an edged weapon component early and therefore was not about defense against knives. WC evolved as all good martial systems do. They will continue to evolve unless the practitioner masses refuse to evolve. Why were the pole and swords added to the system? Just because, was it an afterthought, or was it because the systems practitioners saw a need for it. They must have been encountering the pole or staffs and bladed weapons. I didn't say wc started out as an bladed system. I wasn't there but I am willing to bet that those who were using it found a need to protect themselves against objects other than just an opponent's fist and feet.
You and yours may train wc only against empty hands we train vs anything someone can put in their hands.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
You are comparing a FMA system without early blade but with early stickwork, to wing chun with no early stick or knife work at all, ever.

This doesn't seem like a good comparison in terms of the point you are trying to make about a FMA system without early blade work.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
The weakness lies in people that don't know how to use a knife (and I'm talking about a tactical folder and not a Wing Chun short sword!) making up techniques that THEY think would work against a knife attacker. You really need to train with a knife to understand how to realistically defend against a knife.

Specifically?
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
You are comparing a FMA system without early blade but with early stickwork, to wing chun with no early stick or knife work at all, ever.

This doesn't seem like a good comparison in terms of the point you are trying to make about a FMA system without early blade work.
What do you call early? He learned footwork for 3 years, then learned empty hand work for approx another 3 years. Said he had been training for almost 6 years before beginning his stickwork. My wc sifu trained for right at 6 years before leaving Hong Kong; had been through the pole and for most of the last year was training the knives. What is early?

Glad someone finds my post funny. Shows you have a sense of humor.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
What's the system? Would you say it is representative of FMA, or unusual?
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The weakness lies in people that don't know how to use a knife (and I'm talking about a tactical folder and not a Wing Chun short sword!) making up techniques that THEY think would work against a knife attacker. You really need to train with a knife to understand how to realistically defend against a knife.

I agree that people shouldn't be teaching knife defense who don't have knowledge of knife-work. On the other hand, I don't think a person has to be highly trained in blade-work to present a very serious threat.

I remember one seminar with Rene Latosa, where he took a mixed group of martial artists from diverse backgrounds and asked everybody who had previous knife training (of any kind) to go to one side of the room, and those who felt they were clueless noobs regarding knives to go to the other side. He provided training knives only to the noobs, told them to pair up with the "experienced" guys, and try to seriously (but safely) attack them ...to cut and thrust, as many times as they could, any way that worked for them, and above all, not to surrender their knives, no matter what.

Even with the caveat to work safely, with controlled force, and avoiding the face, you can imagine what happened. Let's put it this way: if the knives had been real, every one of the self proclaimed "experienced" guys would have been cut up really bad, and maybe killed. Maybe a few ultimately succeeded in controlling or disarming their attacker, but not before they would have sustained serious injuries.

The point? All those FMA passing, controlling, and disarming drills are the last ditch option of a guy in a seriously "effed-up" situation. And a guy with his eyes open should be able to see that even working against an unskilled training partner, if the partner is being honest and non-compliant when he attacks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KPM

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
.
You and yours may train wc only against empty hands we train vs anything someone can put in their hands.

Danny, I do not know if you ever post videos of yourself or students, but if you do, I'd really appreciate seeing some of your basic WC drills with or against knives. If not, maybe a description?
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Danny, I do not know if you ever post videos of yourself or students, but if you do, I'd really appreciate seeing some of your basic WC drills with or against knives. If not, maybe a description?
I can attempt to. To be honest I don't know how post a video. I could e-mail it to you. I know how to do that.
Get me your e-mail address and I'll get something to you in the next few days. How about that?
 

Latest Discussions

Top