Kihon Happo roots

[Fool Wolf]

Hi everyone,

I am a novice ninjutsu practitioner, but well read on the theory and history (probably not as well read as a lot of you guys). I have recently become interested in the kihon happo. I believe Hatsumi soke took it from Gyokko ryu. The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school. The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques. Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned? Which came first? In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter.

peace
FW


http://mypages.smig.net/users/jtweymo/Kihon_happo.htm

 

[Kizaru]

Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned? Which came first? In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter.

From what I see, the jujutsu school you refer to has a loose connection to Takagi Yoshin ryu. I've been told that Gyokko ryu came to Japan at about the year 1100 CE and had an influence on a few martial arts in Japan; Takagi Yoshin ryu being one of them. On the other side of the coin, I've been told that some of the Takagi Yoshin ryu kihon happo katas are different than those from Gyokko ryu. For example, one uses Oni Kudaki, another does not.

My girlfriend, (who's been studying Aikido for the past 8 years) and I were talking about something like this yesterday morning. She was saying how "Nikkyu" and "Kotegaeshi" in Aikido are mechanically the same as "Ura Gyaku" and "Omote Gyaku" in Gyokko ryu. "So what's the difference?", I said. From her perspective, it was "the feeling". In Aikido, she says she feels like she moves in a big, smooth circle to create inertia and "a flow" to toss her opponent. From her perspective, when she sees/experiences the Bujinkan version, she says she gets the impression that we're moving smoothly, but smoothly in a way that makes it difficult to "see" what's going on.

Anyone else have other thoughts?

 

[Gary Arthur]

Kihon Happo I believe was something that Hatsumi Sensei started in the late 1970s or 1980s. Many people believe that this form comes from Gyokko Ryu but actually only the first three patterns of striking come from that school. The other techniques such as Musha Dori come from other schools such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone, but originally it was really just an idea. When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this, but in the early days it simple meant 'How to use Hicho' and there were many examples.

I believe Kihon Happo can also be translated as something like 'Infinite ways of using the basics'

 

[Cryozombie]

Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone,

Is it?

The reason I ask, is that I have always been told that you "Do" Kihon happo to learn the movements, and how the joints work, etc... but then when you understand how they are done you use those movements as an underlying idea on how to "use the gifts your opponent gives you"... and I have seen the Kihon Happo done a large varitey of ways...

Is the way I am being trained in it different than what is "Norm" in the Bujinkan?

 

[Kreth]

Is the way I am being trained in it different than what is "Norm" in the Bujinkan?

Not really, no. Seems someone has a misconception about Bujinkan training...

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Kihon Happo I believe was something that Hatsumi Sensei started in the late 1970s or 1980s. Many people believe that this form comes from Gyokko Ryu but actually only the first three patterns of striking come from that school. The other techniques such as Musha Dori come from other schools such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Nope. Musha dori comes from Gyokko ryu. It's oni kudaki that's from TYR.

Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone,

Umm, no??

When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this,

IMHE, it has always been like that.

 

[r erman]

double post

 

[r erman]

Nope. Musha dori comes from Gyokko ryu. It's oni kudaki that's from TYR.

Actually, I think it comes from Musashi Ryu Jujutsu...

The point that Gary is trying to make is that if you ask a person, "what are the fundamental techniques within the kh?", you are going to get a list of the koshi kihon sanpo and the torite kihon goho. But depending on how long ago you started learning these the torite kata may have been:

ura gyaku
omote gyaku
musha dori
muso dori
oni kudaki

or

ura gyaku
omote gyaku
musha dori
oni kudaki(both ura and omote)
ganseki nage

or

omote gyaku
omote gyaku tsuki
ura gyaku
musha dori
ganseki nage

or

omote gyaku
ura gyaku
hon gyaku
musha dori
ganseki nage

...etc, ad infinitum

I think Kreth has a point, too, but I think many bujinkan schools have fallen under the spell of 'this is Hicho no Kata' rather than looking at(as Gary said) a concept for using hicho no kamae. In other words, Gary's "misconception" of bujinkan training is not all that uncommon within the bujinkan.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Really?? That's interesting. I've heard that Musashi ryu was incorporated into Shinden Fudo Ryu, but never Gyokko ryu. I believe there is also some old text written by Hatsumi sensei in the 70's that states that originally, kihon happo eight was muso/jigoku dori rather than ganseki nage.

I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways...

 

[r erman]

I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways...

Nail on the head

 

[Gary Arthur]

Nimravus

I think we are getting carried away a little bit by the names of the techniques.
The movement Musha Dori is common to lots of schools and is used in the Kata 'Kata Maki' from Koto Ryu, in the Kata 'Oni Otoshi' from Kukishinden Ryu, and in several kata from the Takagi Yoshin Ryu.
Oni Kudaki is also used in the Takagi Yoshin Ryu and was shown by Doron Navon back in 1987 when he visited the UK.
If we are saying that Mushadori comes from Gyokko Ryu, then where in the scroll is this techniques listed as being called Mushadori.
As far as I can remember there are no techniques that bear a resemblance to Musha Dori in Gyokko Ryu (although of course it depends how your insructor interprets the school).

I also remember seeing a tape of some westerners training with Noguchi Sensei in Japan. They ask him how to do Jumonji No Kata. Noguchi Sensei looks a little perplexed and then show many different ways of using Jumonji in a fight. As westerners we love to get things set in stone, but in the east things are not really like that. However a time has gone on I believe that these once concepts have become set techniques.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It's what I've been hearing for as long as I've been training.

The main damage point in musha dori by the way is of course the shoulder, in katamaki it's the elbow.

 

[heretic888]

*shrugs* For whatever its worth....

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sukisha/gyokko.html

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Fool Wolf: "I have recently become interested in the kihon happo. I believe Hatsumi soke took it from Gyokko ryu. The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school. The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques. Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned? Which came first? In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter."

From what I've been able to piece together over the years, the following is what I've been able to conclude:

I don't know how many styles have a set of kata specifically called, "kihon happo," but the idea of having a group of fundamentals is common to many martial arts. The jujutsu school mentioned - after a quick glance - looks like someone took kata from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and modeled it to fit a kihon happo template, and with a few other minor tweaks, created a new style (or a new way of doing an old style).

I've only seen the kihon happo as a 'Hatsumi-ha' (Hatsumi-sensei's syle/method) of teaching basic techniques, most of which are from Gyokko Ryu. However, I don't think they were referred to as "kihon happo" within the Gyokko Ryu. The basic forms of Gyokko Ryu (before getting to the joryaku, churyaku, and geryaku no maki) consist of "ki kata" - 5 postures and their uses - likely a kind of sanshin or gogyo no kata; "moto kata" - the kihon kosshi sanpo / kosshijutsu san dan kamae kata / etc; "torite kihon kata" - the following five kata done 'sayu' (left and right) for a total of ten forms: omote kote gyaku dori, omote gyaku no tsuki ken sabaki, ura gyaku, musha dori (jigoku dori? see below *), muso dori - which were called "view one," "view two," ... "view ten;" the basics may have also included shinken taihenjutsu (muto dori).

Gary Aurther: "Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone, ..."

Technopunk: "Is it?"

Yeah, I'd have to disagree too. I suppose it depends on where you train (is that how it is in Toshindo?), but the overall flavor of Bujinkan training is the exploration of many henka (variations) early on. I'm sure some/many dojo teach them as 'set in stone' for beginners to have a single fundamental form to work on before getting lost in henka land.

Gary Aurther: "...but originally it was really just an idea. When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this, but in the early days it simple meant 'How to use Hicho' and there were many examples. ..

I believe Kihon Happo can also be translated as something like 'Infinite ways of using the basics'"

The above is the feeling I get from watching Hatsumi (unfortunately only on video for now), and the shidoshi I train with. Each kata is an idea that leads to an infinite number of techniques.

I think that's why we see so many different outlines of the torite kihon.

The original 10 kata of the Gyokko Ryu has been modified into the Bujinkan kihon happo, and many variations exist.

r erman: "...etc, ad infinitum"

Yes, and if not to infinity, then at least to ten:

1. ura gyaku
2. hon gyaku (as ura gyaku henka)
3. omote gyaku
4. omote gyaku tsuki (as omote gyaku henka)
5. oni kudaki (omote)
6. ura oni kudaki (henka of omote oni kudaki)
7. musha dori (uchi maki dori ashi ori,

* [possibly a henka of jigoku dori, but the movements are so dissimilar, jigoku dori always seems like an 'ura' henka of the omote oni kudaki to me])

8. jigoku dori (a sort of omote henka to the 'ura' muso dori)
9. muso dori
10. ganseki nage (as muso dori henka)

Nimravus: "I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways..."

Damn that's beautiful!

Gary Aurther: "I think we are getting carried away a little bit by the names of the techniques."

Helps us to set things in stone, just the way we Westerners like it.

"The movement Musha Dori is common to lots of schools ..."

It sure is, and not just schools of the Bujinkan.

"... and is used in the Kata 'Kata Maki' from Koto Ryu, ..."

Nimravus: "The main damage point in musha dori by the way is of course the shoulder, in katamaki it's the elbow."

That's how I've seen it as well, but I have seen musha dori as a variant of katamaki.

Gary Aurther: "...in the Kata 'Oni Otoshi' from Kukishinden Ryu, and in several kata from the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Oni Kudaki is also used in the Takagi Yoshin Ryu ..."

I'll have to check my notes to verify all that, but I believe you. I am pretty sure that oni kudaki is from TYR, but I've seen something similar in Kukishin & Shindenfudo.

"If we are saying that Mushadori comes from Gyokko Ryu, then where in the scroll is this techniques listed as being called Mushadori.
As far as I can remember there are no techniques that bear a resemblance to Musha Dori in Gyokko Ryu (although of course it depends how your insructor interprets the school)."

Interesting point. Again, I'll have to check my notes on that, but now that you mention it, I don't remember any mushadori-like movements in Gyokko Ryu kata either.

It may have been jigoku dori that was originally in Gyokko Ryu torite kihon kata, with musha dori being a variation. ??

This is all very intellectually stimulating, but of course being armed with this knowledge now, the important thing would be to practice all these variations.

 

[Gary Arthur]

Oni Kudaki is technique number 9 in the Okuden Gata of the Kukishinden Ryu.

Interestingly Tanemura Sensei in article a few years ago stated that the basic techniques of Gyokko Ryu are the Koshi Kihon Sanpo and some techniques that translate as Tiger change, Panther change, Dragon change and relates to attacking techniques. Tanemura mentions nothing on the five Torite, even though he goes in some depth into the basics of the Gyokko ryu.
Sanshin I believe was once the secret techniques of the Gyokko Ryu.
Also important for Gyokko Ryu is of course the Chiryaku Futen Goshin Gassho fists etc, which are assumed before doing the different levels of the Ryu, i.e. Jo Ryaku, Churyaku etc. The school according to Tanemura Sensei also has in it Kamae such as Nemuri Ryu No Kamae, Ton Ryu No Kamae etc.

I still feel that the Kihon Happo was something that Hatsumi started. The western instructors took this set, standadized it and now use it as a way of teaching the basics.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In the new book by Alex Esteve, Oguri sensei states that Takamatsu said to him that "everything will be fine provided you can do the kihon happo".

 

[Peter Steeves]

Just to throw in my 2 cents:

As a Jinenkan instructor, we as an organization tend to consider the basics the key to the whole puzzle. We think that you first have to get the parts, before you can assemble them into the whole. As such, we train all the basics with very specific details that absolutely must be included to be "correct," while I most certainly agree that within a reasonable range, there is no single right way, but lots of wrong ones.

I remember in my training with the Bujinkan that it was more about learning them in context right away. Once the overall concept started to sink in, competent instructors had details they'd add in to get it more and more "correct." As long as your instructor knows his stuff, you'll make great progress with either approach. Many other martial arts approach the problem from either method of teaching, and still produce competent practitioners.

Perhaps this is the door to another thread, but what we call Muso Dori （無双捕）　and Musha Dori （武者捕）　seem to be the opposite of what's described here. This was a source of confusion for me when I arrived in Japan. We use them the same way as the names used in Hatsumi Sensei's old videos about the "Foundations of Togakure Ryu."

Within that context, BOTH techniques are found in the Basics of Gyokko Ryu (#7 - #10).

Also, Oni Kudaki, according to my records, is certainly found in both Kukishin and Takagi.

 

[Gary Arthur]

Take a look at this from this Stephen K Hayes web site. It explains how the Godai and Kihon Happo came into being. I know there may be some heated discussion on the truth of this but please remember Stephen Hayes was there. None of us were.

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php

Gary Arthur

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

He was there, and may still be wrong. Hint: there's a reason the Japanese shihan keep training with Hatsumi sensei...

 

[Scooter]

just to play devil's advocate here....does it really matter where they came from? I think you're missing the point here, which is not where, but why....why do we do them? As Hatsumi has stated, these are the basics that everything else flows from. Think of it this way, there are only so many ways you can manipulate a joint (in general directional means)..these cover the major ones. Anything you do, if you break it down and keep breaking it down, sooner or later you hit the kihon. Once you have a working mastery of the kihon it is easy to build on, as that is the foundation for it all.
BTW, as Ed Martin ("Papa-san") has pointed out, the kihon happo can also be applied to legs, knees and feet as opposed to the arms, elbows and wrists. Stop thinking of it so much in terms of specific kata, and more of what it is trying to teach you.