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Aiki Lee

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Right. Nope. Shitojutsu is the old name for what Gyokko Ryu teaches (renamed as Kosshijutsu by Sogyokkan Ritsushi, the 12th head of the Ryu). Kosshijutsu is not the attacking of nerves and muscles, that's an oversimplification and an inaccurate one, as there's plenty within Gyokko Ryu that simply doesn't do that. And no, that's not what I was getting at either....

My experience with gyokko ryu is in the kihon happo, joryaku no maki, and some muto dori. Kosshijutsu I have experimented with is performed by striking kyusho with various fists. If there is more to koshijutsu than striking kyusho would you mind helping me figure out what that is? What else do you believe I should be looking for?
 

Chris Parker

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ok lemme have a try at this philosophy:
Kosshi in kanji (as defined by hatsumi) is 'finger' and 'bone'. as far as i see, there are two main explanations to the meaning of this: the first is practical, which is using the finger or bones (in other words the tips of your body) to strike the enemy weak points. the second and more philosophical ive read somewhere is that to truly learn gyokko ryu you must train "your finger to the bone" or something like that....

Yeah... the issue with that kind of reasoning is that it only looks at a superficial (and inaccurate) level. Same with Himura's take above... looking at a single physical trait, rather than looking at what that trait is really showing you (as well as other aspects). Then it gets inaccurate when you realize that Koto Ryu, for instance, actually uses fists such as Shito Ken more than Gyokko Ryu does... in fact, Gyokko's most common striking weapons are Kiten Ken and Soku Yaku Keri, neither of which are "fingers and toes".

question is, how would you define kosshijutsu?

I'll get to that at the end...

Do you think that is the only reading of the kanji?

It's probably best to look at this a bit deeper, there's a knack to this sort of thing.

Ha, I see what you did there... punny.... (the first kanji is "kotsu", meaning bone, but can also be written meaning "a knack".... ha!)

My experience with gyokko ryu is in the kihon happo, joryaku no maki, and some muto dori. Kosshijutsu I have experimented with is performed by striking kyusho with various fists. If there is more to koshijutsu than striking kyusho would you mind helping me figure out what that is? What else do you believe I should be looking for?

So Kosshijutsu is targeting kyusho? Then is Karate Kosshijutsu? See how such a definition doesn't work? It's just too broad. In terms of what else to look for, look to the tactics and movement patterns, rather than the individual strikes/kicks etc.

So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.

Look at the kata. For Hicho no Kata (to begin with), the kick is "hidden" (striking from an unusual, or hidden angle) under the attacking and blocking arms.

Koku shows moving inside and outside around the opponent, deflecting the kick, and finishing with a strike from an unusual (hidden) angle.

Renyo shows constant moving around, with a hidden kick as part of the take-down, and so on.

And so it continues. Does that help?
 

skuggvarg

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So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.

Look at the kata. For Hicho no Kata (to begin with), the kick is "hidden" (striking from an unusual, or hidden angle) under the attacking and blocking arms.

Koku shows moving inside and outside around the opponent, deflecting the kick, and finishing with a strike from an unusual (hidden) angle.

Renyo shows constant moving around, with a hidden kick as part of the take-down, and so on.

And so it continues. Does that help?
Good summary I think even though sometimes there is a tendancy of putting too much weight on the "name" of the school. As for Hicho no kamae there is plenty "hidden" in the name only; the block, kick and strike action in itself are more a result of the over all movement. It hints at something much bigger, which is at the core of Gyokko Ryu. The waza links nicely to Ichimonji once you have an idea of the concepts behind it. The way of moving your body, the position of the front leg/knee, the way of recieving an attack and so on are all interesting.

Regards / Skuggvarg
 

Aiki Lee

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Yes that does help a lot. I certainly see all the things you have stated now that I look more specifically at them. Thanks for your assistance here Chris :)
 
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Dean X

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So Kosshijutsu is targeting kyusho? Then is Karate Kosshijutsu? See how such a definition doesn't work? It's just too broad. In terms of what else to look for, look to the tactics and movement patterns, rather than the individual strikes/kicks etc.

So what is Kosshijutsu? Well, the biggest trait of Kosshijutsu (to my mind) is the usage of small actions to defeat larger opponents. That's where the name comes into it... the reference to "finger bones" is a reference to using smaller parts/techniques/actions to attack your opponents, with the meaning being that the bones of the fingers are the smallest (usable) ones on the body. The way that gets expressed in Gyokko Ryu is that the the primary tactic is to move around the opponent, attacking from unusual angles, rather than meeting the opponent head on. That's Kosshijutsu... the fingertips/toes against soft targets really isn't. It's a part of how the art works, but that's not the same as saying that that is Kosshijutsu, especially when it's a smaller part of the physical methods themselves.

Look at the kata. For Hicho no Kata (to begin with), the kick is "hidden" (striking from an unusual, or hidden angle) under the attacking and blocking arms.

Koku shows moving inside and outside around the opponent, deflecting the kick, and finishing with a strike from an unusual (hidden) angle.

Renyo shows constant moving around, with a hidden kick as part of the take-down, and so on.

And so it continues. Does that help?

First of all, yes, this helps alot. The word games make me sad i don't know japanese (yet).

I like the "strategic" view point to the overall school. I would like to ask how you see the other schools strategically, but I would'nt want to be too much of a pain in the ***, so don't feel obligated :).

Thank you, anyway.
 

Chris Parker

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Without the strategic (larger picture) way of looking at the systems, all you can see is the individual techniques.... which is like thinking an entire meal is a single ingredient, or perhaps a single dish. Sadly, that deeply lacking and shallow level of understanding is something I see as very common, most particularly in the more "modern" systems, as well as in the Bujinkan (in the main). That small focus shapes and permeates the comments of even the most highly ranked people, sadly. But the wider understanding (which means you look far past, and beyond simple "technique", to the point that you realize the techniques themselves are far from the important part... and, at the same time, are essential... as they are a means to an end, rather than an end themselves, as they are so often seen to be) is essential. Without it, there's no real art there. Just mechanical actions.

That said, rather than go through each Ryu individually, I might just link something prepared earlier... these were two (separate) posts made by myself in two separate threads, in responce to two separate questions, that were later put together as a sticky for this section. I hope you get something out of what is written (for the record, I'd probably refine what I said in a few places today...): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...u-Budo-Taijutsu-amp-Related-arts-descriptions
 

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