Kenpo salutation question

[KenpoDave]

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

Scott, it seems to me that Parker would likely have learned this salutation from Chow, and although he did not like to claim Mitose as part of his lineage, may not have known that the part of the salutation in question had it's beginnings in Mitose's art.

Like Dan, the only place I know of this salutation being used in Tracy's is in Two Man Set, a set that was NOT developed by Parker. It could be possible then, that the salutation came to Parker through Woo.

Was this part of the salutation the inspiration for the "I come to you with empty hands..." creed?

Dave

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by KenpoDave

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

Scott, it seems to me that Parker would likely have learned this salutation from Chow, and although he did not like to claim Mitose as part of his lineage, may not have known that the part of the salutation in question had it's beginnings in Mitose's art.

Like Dan, the only place I know of this salutation being used in Tracy's is in Two Man Set, a set that was NOT developed by Parker. It could be possible then, that the salutation came to Parker through Woo.

Was this part of the salutation the inspiration for the "I come to you with empty hands..." creed?

Dave

Well Sir, you are right the Two-Man Set from Tracy's I believe is different from the Parker Two-man Set also known as the "Book Set." The Parker version was borrowed from Hung gar along with "Tiger and the Crane" and a couple of other experiments while Parker was studying with Chinese Masters.

As far as "Kosho ryu" There was no such thing (at least that term was not used) until Mitose came to the mainland. According to those who were there like Emperado, Mitose didn't really have much of an art, just some basic "karate" stuff. Nothing special, and Mitose almost never worked out. Outside of his book there are very few pictures of him in a gi. Most of the time he worn his "con man suit." A priests robe and collar with a large cross around his neck.

So everyone that does a part of a salutation that resembles something Mitose says he did is in Mitose's lineage? I think this is really a dead issue. Parker himself declared Mitose not a part of his lineage and that is all that matters, and I know for sure American Kenpo comes from Parker with very little physical input from even Chow.

The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Doc



The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.

Then how was it originally written?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig


Then how was it originally written?

Omit the words "karate" and say the creed and then you'll have it. In the original published version in Ed Parker's first Book on Kenpo in 1961, the words "karate" in the creed were double hypenated and bracketed, only to show the translation, NOT to be recited. Look in the book. He didn't want to call his art Karate but the public only knew 2 words. Judo and karate. So he added karate to kenpo to "sell" his art.

 

[KenpoDave]

Originally posted by Doc




So everyone that does a part of a salutation that resembles something Mitose says he did is in Mitose's lineage? I think this is really a dead issue. Parker himself declared Mitose not a part of his lineage and that is all that matters, and I know for sure American Kenpo comes from Parker with very little physical input from even Chow.

The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.

No, I am wondering if the salutation ended up in Parker Kenpo without Parker knowing from where it came. Having been used by Mitose, I am sure others knew it, obviously Chow, likely Emperado. It could have made it's way to Parker without having come "directly" from Mitose.

As far as the creed, when I was taught Two Man Set, we recited the creed during the salutation. The hand positions go along with the words, and so I am wondering if it is this salutation that inspired the creed, or at least the order of the prose.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by KenpoDave



No, I am wondering if the salutation ended up in Parker Kenpo without Parker knowing from where it came. Having been used by Mitose, I am sure others knew it, obviously Chow, likely Emperado. It could have made it's way to Parker without having come "directly" from Mitose.

As far as the creed, when I was taught Two Man Set, we recited the creed during the salutation. The hand positions go along with the words, and so I am wondering if it is this salutation that inspired the creed, or at least the order of the prose.

The creed existed independent of physical interpretations. "Uncle Dave" (Ed Parkers "little brother") also contributed to the creed as well as drew the first patch.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

I don't understand where Chiduce gets all of his information from, but he has me interested. Sir, the salute actually came about before the Ch'ing Dynasty. I offer you the following:

Before the establishment of Shao-lin (Mandarin) or Sil Lum (Cantonese), an open left hand resting on a right clenched fist was used as a salutation preceeding a set or form.

This gesture has several different meanings:

(1) Respect to the originator of this particular system and all of those who had trained before him, with him, and under him.

(2) Respect to both scholars and men of the martial arts alike; since the left open hand represents the scholar, and the right clenched fist represented the warrior (or martial artist).

(3) Respect to the audience.

During the period of the Shao-lin or Sil Lum in the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644-1912) the meaning of the salute changed, and two additional movements were added to it. This significantly altered the original meaning of the salute.

The new definition changed the following things in the original gesture: The left open hand represented the day, and the right clenched fist was symbolic of the moon. Together they represented the chinese character Ming, identifying the practitoner as a revolutionary defender for the cause of the Ming restoration.

The first of the two added movements was accomplished by rolling the palms of both hands, down and out, ending with the back of the left hand against the back of the right hand (palms open, and facing out to the sides). The fingers at this point were formed like claws and raised to chest level. This movement meant that the practitioner was against foreign domination and that his heart was true to the real China.

The second move was done by clenching both hands into fists and simultaneously pulling both of them back to the hips in a chambered position, palm up. The pulling movement meant that by working together the practitioner and other followers of the movement could take their country back by working together.

According to what I've been told, Mr. Parker had a profound appreciation for the original meaning behind the salute, and reverted to that defintion of it for our Kenpo System.

Left over Right:
The Scholar and the Warrior come together...

Hands turned palm out:
...to defend against foreign domination...

Clenched fists pulled back to the hips:
...by pulling together.

Hands form the shape of a traingle:
I am friendly and unarmed...
(This gesture has also been interpeted as the unification of mind body and spirit)

Left open hand conceals right clenched fist:
I now cover my weapon, for I wish not to use it...

Hands placed together as if praying:
...but now that I am being forced to use my weapon, I pray for forgiveness for what I am about to do.

Take Care,
Billy Lear

I took the salutation back to the Qing Dynasty because of my other post about the overthrow, and shaolin burning an the escaping monks. So, the Qing Dynasty was the specific concentrated focus of the post. The triads formed because of this overthrow and the burning of shaolin. Also, my info. comes from various sources such as, Qi Gong Kung Fu Magazine, Shaolin White Crane History ( Yang Jwing Ming), Chinese Boxing Institute, Shaolin Temple New York, etc,.
Thank you for your input and clarification also.
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[jeffkyle]

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part?

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation?

"I have no weapons."

That triangle you hold up is a representation of the joint locks such as the wrist joint lock. ie - thumbs on the back of the palm while holding the wrist compression.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jeffkyle

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part?

Yes sir. There are many applications in the salutation as I was taught.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Doc

Yes sir. There are many applications in the salutation as I was taught.

Could you give us some examples?

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by jeffkyle

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part?

You mean the part with left open hand and right fist where you do the thing that ends in a cat?

I heard a story of a kenpoist who was at a tournament where they did all the commands in a language other than english. The ref said something what he didn't understand so he started to do the salutation. The other person came charging in (the command had been to start a fight) and the kenposist closes his left hand into a first and hits the guy in the face then comes back and finishes the salutation without missing a beat, thus winning the match.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part?

Yep, the entire salutation!

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

The right back elbow / left heel palm sandwich, or the left inward elbow as you execute a thrusting sweep kick (stepping into your twist stance?

Or was it the applications after that. Can you say "hidden moves" and "let no motion be wasted motion" ... if you have that kinda inquiring mind.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

The right back elbow / left heel palm sandwich, or the left inward elbow as you execute a thrusting sweep kick (stepping into your twist stance?

Or was it the applications after that. Can you say "hidden moves" and "let no motion be wasted motion" ... if you have that kinda inquiring mind.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

That was what I had in mind. Thank you Mr. Billings!

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks,
This has been quite an interesting thread on one of the key ingredients of the american kenpo "tradition"...the salutation.

So, i'll start at the first post and answer some of the various posters...

The first question was aimed at asking if the second part of the salutation originates from James Mitose's Kosho Ryu Kenpo system and the answer is yes, it does!

Mr. Parker was originally taught the salute in his training with Prof. Chow, who trained directly with Mitose and was eventually awarded a Fifth Degree Black Belt by Mitose. You can check with Adriano Emperado [one of the founders of Kajukenbo] who is still alive and trained in classes with Mr. Parker and was his senior under Chow.

When I asked Mr. Parker about it in the 1980's he grudgingly admitted that it came from Chow and when he later had Mitose stop by one of his studios [Huk Planas and Steve Hearring were both there and can give you insight into those visits]

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::: :soapbox:

 

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

I was just browsing and saw this topic... Mr. Lee Wedlake Jr. offers a great explanation and history of the Kenpo salutation in his new book, Kenpo 201.

Just thought I would let people know if you were interested. It is a great book. Lots of explanations.

Salute and good journey!

Respectfully In Kenpo,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

www.unitedparkerskenpo.com

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

I posted this at another kenpo forum as well....

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

It is found in no other system of martial arts, only Mitose’s Kenpo, and later American Kenpo, Tracy’s etc..

Sanxiawuyi


The Kenpo Exchange

Dear San,
Who told you there was no relationship to Mitose's Kosho Ryu system in Ed Parker's American Kenpo?
BTW, there are other okinawan kenpo/kempo styles that use variations on Mitose's saluation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

The American kenpo salutation is different from other "Chinese" influenced arts.

The beginning is very similar to Southern Chinese systems, i.e. Hung Gar Gong Fu, Choy Lay Fut, etc.. but the part I mentioned (the end section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands) isn’t in any Chinese systems, Northern or Southern.

Sanxiawuyi

The Kenpo Exchange

Dear San,
The first section of the full salutation originates from Shaolin Chuan system of kung fu/Wu shu/Wu su specifically and not only southern, but many northern systems [predominently shaolin based] styles use it as well.
I hoipe that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

Hey Sandor,

The line “The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new” is just not true.

American Kenpoist do the concluding portion ot the saluatation exactly as Kosho-ryu stylist do it. No one else does, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc…..

Mitose had been using it in Hawaii long before Mr. Parker’s BYU days.

I disagree with you, san!
Sandor, who used the term “The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new” was accurate because it was it was the blending of the two major influences of the chinese and okinawan/japanese arts that comprise the american kenpo system and the blending of those two salutations in a NEW format.

...and again, certain Goju styles use the same salutation at the end of certain katas.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox::::soapbox: