Kenpo salutation question

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Sanxiawuyi

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I posted this at another kenpo forum as well....

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

It is found in no other system of martial arts, only Mitoses Kenpo, and later American Kenpo, Tracys etc..

Sanxiawuyi
:confused:

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donald

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I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:
 
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Sanxiawuyi

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The American kenpo salutation is different from other "Chinese" influenced arts.

The beginning is very similar to Southern Chinese systems, i.e. Hung Gar Gong Fu, Choy Lay Fut, etc.. but the part I mentioned (the end section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands) isnt in any Chinese systems, Northern or Southern.

Sanxiawuyi

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Sandor

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We the warrior and the scholar go forth to fight, together we shall take back our country.

I am friendly and unarmed.
I hide my secret.
I pray for forgiveness if I need to use it.

then unsaid (as two claws go around to close, palm then fingertips) there is no meaningless motion.

The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new. The old being the tradidional kungfu style opening and the new being the part you are looking for an explanation for. I would suggest a look at SGM Parkers devout religous beliefs as being a part of it and also his way of making obvious the departure from the traditional martial arts world.

Just a few ideas. I wish he were around to ask him because these are on my list of proverbial 'why's'...

Another good question to ask would be how did Parker pick up the salutation before his and Mitose's timelines crossed, OR, was it the other way around as many would like you to belive?

It has always been my understanding that this salutation was used and developed by Parker during his BYU days.



Peace,
Sandor
 
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Sanxiawuyi

Guest
Hey Sandor,

The line The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new is just not true.

American Kenpoist do the concluding portion ot the saluatation exactly as Kosho-ryu stylist do it. No one else does, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc..

Mitose had been using it in Hawaii long before Mr. Parkers BYU days.
 
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Kirk

Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this salutation used in
the movie Blood Sport? Watch the very end, when the
reporter / love interest says goodbye to him from just
outside the airplane door. Am I mistaken?? I'm also
pretty sure we did it in Tung Soo Do.
 
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Sanxiawuyi

Guest
I think you are talking about the beginning of the salutation, which almost ever school of southern Chinese Gong fu does. I mean the part that comes next, with the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu.

BTW Speakman had a cameo in the movie Bloodsport, is that what you are referring too?

If you mean covered fist with open had, .... every East Asian martial arts uses that, i.e. Chinese, Okinawan, Korean, etc. Not what I meant.
 
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Kirk

Guest
Okay, I stand corrected .. we don't do what you're referring
to, in my school. ... I didn't know Speakman had a cameo
in that movie, now I'll hafta watch it again. The part I was
referring to was at the end, Frank Dux was boarding a plane,
and at the top of the stairs leading to the plane, he saw his
love interest, the blonde reporter. She put her left hand
over her fist, and did that head nod / bow thing.
 
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vincefuess

Guest
The salutation, the FULL salutation as we know it in AK was developed by SGM Parker. Mitose had not a thing to do with it. Nor did Chow. I am speaking of the FULL salutation, and not just the hand over fist bow.

The hand over fist bow has it's origins in China, and the significance or interpretation of such has many levels. It represents shelter against evil, as well as concealment of wepons or force, as well as aggression, etc... It is generally considered a sign of good intention. Just like the anglo tradition of the handshake was originally conceived to demonstrate to your host you did not posess a weapon. Same concept.
 
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Sanxiawuyi

Guest
Originally posted by vincefuess
The salutation, the FULL salutation as we know it in AK was developed by SGM Parker. Mitose had not a thing to do with it. Nor did Chow. I am speaking of the FULL salutation, and not just the hand over fist bow.


You obviously didnt read the original post or havent done any research, because the salutation was in no way developed by Mr. Parker.

The first section of the salutation, every school of southern Chinese Gong fu does, i.e. Hong Jia Quan (Hung Gar), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), etc..

I mean the part that comes next, where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This order and style is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu. Mitose did it long before American was formed. So why is it done in American Kenpo?

Sanxiawuyi

P.S. I, like you, believe there was no kosho-ryu like stated in other post, but I think there is a link to Kusankun (also known as Koshokan and Koshankun). Mitose learned from somewhere!?

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:asian:
 
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vincefuess

Guest
I agree with you and thank you for your reply. I was tired when I made that post and wasn't all that clear (though I have a hard time making my points clearly anyway).

Each of the symbolic gestures of the salute have been around since antiquity. The hand over fist, the triangle, the prayer hands, etc.- but am I wrong in saying that Ed Parker was the first to combine them in that particular sequence?

As it was taught to me, the physical gestures are executed along with the verbage of each gesture:

The warrior (fist presented) and the scholar (fist withdrawn, open palm presented) come together (left palm withdrawn to cover right fist as a right front twist stance is employed) go forth in battle (right fist and left palm presented as you step thru to left front cat stance) back to back united as one (top of hands together then rolled and withdrawn to hips and attention stance) we have no weapons (hands form triangle forward overhead and step to horse stance) and we hide our treasure in the art of kenpo (triangle lowered to look thru- then closed to hand over fist) and beg forgiveness if we are forced to use it (praying hands position) we dispell all evil (hands sweep up and over to sides as we return to attention stance).

Now before the posts start- I have heard many different versions of the exact words used, but the intent is the same- so let's not waste time correcting verbage.

It has always been my understanding that SGM Parker developed this particular version of the salute. Again, like all things that relate to martial arts this is likely a topic of debate (gosh what isn't?) and welcome your further points of view on the subject.

Thanks again for the input!
 
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Sanxiawuyi

Guest
Originally posted by vincefuess
It has always been my understanding that SGM Parker developed this particular version of the salute. Again, like all things that relate to martial arts this is likely a topic of debate (gosh what isn't?) and welcome your further points of view on the subject. Thanks again for the input!

Again, I am not speaking about the first section of the salutation, which was developed by the Southern Chinese.

The next section of the American Kenpo salutation, where the practitioner puts their hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

With all due respect to Mr. Parker, the unquestionable Father of American Kenpo, he did not create this salutation, he put two salutations together.

The first part is obviously from Southern Chinese systems, and if Mitose was doing the second part long before American Kenpo, as is evident from his first book, why does American Kenpo have it as part of their curriculum if there is nothing to do with Kosho? I am just curious, as NO other system of martial arts, to my knowledge, does that type of salutation.

Again, to reiterate, NOT the first section which is Southern Chinese, but the last section from Mitose.

Respectfully,
Scott
:asian:
 

Doc

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Originally posted by donald

I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:

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Doc

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Originally posted by Sandor

We the warrior and the scholar go forth to fight, together we shall take back our country.

I am friendly and unarmed.
I hide my secret.
I pray for forgiveness if I need to use it.

then unsaid (as two claws go around to close, palm then fingertips) there is no meaningless motion.

The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new. The old being the tradidional kungfu style opening and the new being the part you are looking for an explanation for. I would suggest a look at SGM Parkers devout religous beliefs as being a part of it and also his way of making obvious the departure from the traditional martial arts world.

Just a few ideas. I wish he were around to ask him because these are on my list of proverbial 'why's'...

Another good question to ask would be how did Parker pick up the salutation before his and Mitose's timelines crossed, OR, was it the other way around as many would like you to belive?

It has always been my understanding that this salutation was used and developed by Parker during his BYU days.



Peace,
Sandor

Yep. The praying hands.
 

Michael Billings

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This was shared at a camp by one of the most Senior Seniors regarding the end of the salutation. Somewhat irreverent, but those who know him would understand.

Triange = Body, Mind, and Spirit
Left Palm over Right Fist = Come together (implied "in Kenpo" or "weapon/warrior & sheild/scholar") to trash you.
Meditating Hands = and we are really sorry!

So in an advanced class we heard "Body, mind, and spirit come together to trash you, and we are really sorry ... "

The rest is probably better left unsaid - but I never forgot it and always got a chuckle out of it.

-Micheal
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Wes Idol

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::::The slap-wipe of the back of your hands against your thighs::::

explelling negative energy

::::as you open to a horse and create the triangle::::

forming the unity of Mind, Body and Spirit

::::to the left-over-right::::

a secret art

::::descend the left-over-right to your heart level::::

that we hold close

::::dropping praying hands to your solar plexus, pointing up on the 45 degree angle::::

and pray (for what we might have to do, or who we might have to do it do)


This is what Parker shared with Hawkins, and what Hawkins shared with me. Concerning the origins, Mitose or not...hmmm. If we are saying the salutation, I'm not sure.

If we're talking about the other aspects of training, I've heard many battle this subject. More often than not, I've heard old time family, friends and students of Parker Sr. lead me to believe that Mitose was more of a workout partner than a significant teacher of Chow. Not to take away from Mitose's abilities, but I've never heard one of Parker's students, who met Mitose (besides Al Tracy) speak of Mitose as anything significant.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
 

Sigung86

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Originally posted by Wes Idol


...
Not to take away from Mitose's abilities, but I've never heard one of Parker's students, who met Mitose (besides Al Tracy) speak of Mitose as anything significant.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

So, this still kind of leaves the question about the "second half" of the salutation's origins unanswered. Unless, simply put, SGM Parker learned the salute from Mitose (and I'm not defending Mitose here), thought it was significant, and in true Kenpo fashion "borrowed what is useful". :lol:

Interestingly, the only place that this particular salute is used in the version of Tracy's Karate that I learned, is in the Two-Man Set.
But already been involved in that controversy and will now sit down and be:

vewy, vewy qwiet ... heh heh heh heh heh....

Dan

Dan
 
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