Keeping previously earned rank

[fist of fury]

How often has this popped up with some of you. Say joe blow gets his Black belt in TKD and deciedes to broaden his horizons and wants to join the local kempo school. But he won't join up with a school unless they let him keep his rank. What do people here think should he be able to do so? My opinion is that he should be treated like any other student and start at the beginning. Just swallow his pride and start over.

 

[bscastro]

First off, I'd like to quote one of my instructors, who said, "A belt should not be the measure to work for, instead it should be a measurement of your work."

I think that sums up my philosophy on the issue. When I was training in TKD, we would have people come into our club with a black belt from a different style. A couple were really respectful and were really good, so my instructor let him keep his belt on and basically let him learn our forms and nuances, which he did so in a dedicated manner.

However, we've had people come in with higher belts but with little skill (e.g. They got the belt when they were 9 years old and now they are 18 with about 7-8 years since last training). These we basically said they had to start over again.

Basically, i think people who come into it with the attitude of "I should be able to wear my belt" have the wrong attitude. I think it might be hard when a lot of work has been put in, but I think if a belt is a sign of the part of the curriculum a student is in, he should really start at the beginning, except in some cases like I mentioned above.

Bryan

 

[Mantis Leg]

The black belt is an expression of a journey that the student has begun. Black is the beginning of the true learning. An analogy that was told to me is that all ranks under black are like slices in a pie. Together these slices make a level. Then when you reach black you reach the next level. And so on.
When a person changes styles they start over. They're learning something new, so the old belt doesn't reflect their knowledge of the new system. Wearing a black in the new system could be bad also because other students may ask questions of the black that he/she can't answer from the framework of that system.
Finally it's not about what you wear on your waist, it's what's inside of you that really matters. Just because you wear a white belt again doesn't erase your knowledge, it shows humility and respect for the new style you are studying.

 

[Kyle]

If the belt is intended to signify a certain level of skill in a specific style, then they should wear the belt that accurately reflects their level.

Meaning, if they are a black-belt in TKD and want to take Kempo, I would expect them to start out at white-belt like everyone else.

Now, given their background, they will no doubt earn their belts faster than someone without that background.

If they can't handle that, I would tell them they need to find another school.

- Kyle

 

[Jay Bell]

What do people here think should he be able to do so?

I'd point him to the door. Different styles of martial arts typically have very little to do with one another. You also have no idea the emphasis behind the black belt that he had previously. If he got it when he was 12 and hasn't trained since, how much credit should he be given anyway?

The only way I would allow someone to wear a blackbelt is if they were given that rank from another Bujinkan school.

 

[Zoran]

Much of this must be considered on a case by case basis. At my school, we've had one or two black belts allowed to carry their rank. They are usually cross trainers. They are not there for rank or to convert to our system. They are usually instructors and 3rd Black and up. They are considered guest, not students.

Now if you wish to become a student and commit to learning the curriculum from the beginning, then there are usually two options, depending of the MA experience of the person. Start as a white belt, or a few may be allowed to not wear a belt until a later promotion. The latter is a respect that is given to a Martial Artist of many years of experience. Keith Hackney was the only one at our school that was allowed to do that. He already had a 2nd Black in TSD and TKD with a total of 15+ years of experience.

 

[karatekid1975]

In my TSD school, two girls (sisters) were black belts in TKD when they came in. They were talented girls. My instructor let them keep their black belts, but they had a year or something to learn the TSD stuff up to their rank, then they would officially test for the TSD black belt. There where a couple of others who did TSD (under BB rank) that also came to our school. My instructor started them at white belt to make sure they knew their stuff, then tested them for their old rank.

When I started TKD, they started me at white belt, but because of my previous experience, I'm advancing faster than the usual student. I have to learn their forms, but everything else is the same.

But, as far as an ego, I'm not the type to "rub it in their face" because I'm advancing fast. I'm more than willing to help anyone who needs help. And I agree that not just the seniors should get respect, but EVERYONE should.

As far as a TKD student joining a Kenpo school, I would start them at white, because it's a totally different style. If a TKD student moved and joined another TKD school, then I'd let them keep their rank and offically test them later.

 

[AZ_Kenpoist]

(note: this is my first post after lurking for 2 months!)

After working my way up to green a few years back, I got out for a variety of reasons not really worth going into right now. But when I returned last year to begin training again (in the same school, I might add), I was given the option of tying on the green belt and essentially re-learning the material at an accelerated pace. I chose to start all over again at white and stick with the regular curriculum. My reasons were pretty simple...I felt I was going to make a new beginning with my training, making a break with old bad habits, memories, etc. I also wanted to train with my wife, who was just starting. I liked the idea of helping her with the material she didn't understand and I'm getting a lot more out of my training now that I'm looking through it through fresh eyes.

I tried explaining my story to a mother on Friday who is enrolling her kids in our school after they've trained in another system (Japanese Karate). She was concerned about her kids wasting the past year and a half getting to blue belt and having to start over because they've "worked so hard over there," even though the systems are completely different. I even tried to explain the benefits of having both kids start at the same level so they can train together and learn from each other (one's a blue & one's a gold). I don't think she bought it.

I guess she didn't hear me. It's still about belt color to a lot of people.

 

[Klondike93]

Some of this sounds like my story.

In my first stint in training in TKD I got up to about high blue level then had to stop.
When I started back up it was as a white belt, but I could pick stuff up faster and thus advanced faster to black belt.
Then I started kenpo and started at white belt but was allowed to wear my black belt and just have stripes of my current belt level on it. Then the school went out of buisness and had to stop.
Now I'm doing kenpo again and had to start at white belt, again, which is fine by me. My current instructor also told me to wear my black belt. He felt if I wore a white belt it would confuse the other white belts from all my previous experience. It doesn't bother me at all to be learning stuff from other colored belts either, in fact I ask them questions about techniques or forms.

If a black belt can't humble himself and wear a white belt again, maybe he isn't a black belt then.

:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I may have posted someof this on another thread, so forgive me if you've seen it befor.
I've trained in more than a few schools. I've had black belt ranking since 1972. Each time I go to a new school I put on a white belt (unless I have rank in their system) I feel that when learning a new style I need to start at the beginning. Admitedly I my go up fast in rank but I do not expect to. I go to learn the rank is not what I'm after at this point in my life.
Some instructors insist I wear a Black belt. If I can not talk them into letting me wear a white one I'll do as they request BUT I will not wear my stripes/ If I do not know the system I feel funny standing in the front row.
If you come to my school and just wish to work out you wear your rank. If you wish to learn my system Get a white belt and find the back row.
Shadow :asian:

:jediduel:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

If you wish to learn my system Get a white belt and find the back row.
Shadow

I wish I could stay in the back row .. i hate looking at myself
in the mirror! :barf:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I love the back row
I can make mistakes back there and not feel foolish if I do make them
It's fun watching the rest of class and how each person acts. You can learn much from that posistion on the floor.
Shadow

 

[Klondike93]

I feel funny if I'm in the front row so I line up at the end of the white belts. I do get a lot of funny looks, till I tell them I'm just white belt in kenpo.

:asian:

 

[Turner]

I leave it up to the individual student. If s/he wishes to wear the belt that s/he was granted in another style; I have no problem with it if they are willing to wait at that rank for however long it may take in order for them to learn the required information for that rank and the next. The higher the rank, the longer the wait.

When I cross train I prefer to start over at white belt... I insist upon it, actually. However, should I start over with a pristine white belt to indicate my newness at the art or should I wear my comfortable white belt that I've worn for a long long time which now has a brown tint(from sweat and dirt) and is as ragged as people like their black belts to get to show the other white belts that I have previous experience so they don't get confused?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Turner

I leave it up to the individual student. If s/he wishes to wear the belt that s/he was granted in another style; I have no problem with it if they are willing to wait at that rank for however long it may take in order for them to learn the required information for that rank and the next. The higher the rank, the longer the wait.

When I cross train I prefer to start over at white belt... I insist upon it, actually. However, should I start over with a pristine white belt to indicate my newness at the art or should I wear my comfortable white belt that I've worn for a long long time which now has a brown tint(from sweat and dirt) and is as ragged as people like their black belts to get to show the other white belts that I have previous experience so they don't get confused?

Not a bad way to approach it. Probably somewhat unique too.

 

[karatekid1975]

I have to agree, Turner. I know I got strange looks when I started TKD from other white belts, but I didn't mind starting over.

 

[arnisador]

In my JKD class I often explain "Yes, I've done some martial arts before," especially when we do FMA techniques; occasionally this happens in BJJ too. But I wouldn't want to walk in wearing my black belt--I think it's rude, frankly. Still, the new students deserve to know that there's a reason i pick up some things more quickly than they do as it can be demoralizing otherwise! Luckily there's a lot that's fully new to me that I'm slow on too.

 

[karatekid1975]

Good post, Arnisador. I feel the same way in my new school. The new guys/gals do ask me why I picked up on something so quick, I'm honest and tell them that I have previous experience, but I don't go into detail. Sometimes I have to "unlearn" to learn certian things, so I tell them that I'm new at this art the same as them. Sometimes I have a brain fart and do a TSD technique when I was suposed to do a TKD technique while teaching someone ..... oops. But that is a minor blooper.

 

[fist of fury]

Some really good answers so far. I agree that if someone is just showing up to work out and pick up some pointers they can keep their belt but if they want to join as a full time student start out as white belt.

 

[Despairbear]

When I train at a dojo that is under the Aikido branch I am in then I wear my normal rank belt. When I travel I like to visit dojo's where ever I go and when I do I bring a white belt with me and wear it with out reservation when the situation warants. My Sensei talks about the consept of "Beginers Mind", when you enetr a new dojo or work with a new instructor you shoudl do so with a "beginers mind" not compairing or judging but actsepting as if this was your first day trainig ever.



Despair Bear