A Question On Rank

[MJS]

Just tossing this out for opinion.

Would you take rank from someone in the same art that you also teach, but you are either not affiliated with this persons group, nor have you trained with this person on a regular basis?

For example: Lets say Joe has his own school. He has black belts in a few different arts. Joe brings in people for seminars from time to time. However, Joe is not affiliated with any particular teacher. Of course, at some point, your students are going to need to advance, so that means that Joe will need to advance somehow as well. Joe brings in someone to do a seminar. Joe at some point, during some 1 on 1 time with the seminar instructor, mentions that he's an independant group, he doesnt have a teacher to go to, but you feel that you're worthy of a bump in rank. So you drop some hints, subtly or not, about the seminar teacher awarding you rank.

Should the seminar instructor award Joe a new rank, again, keeping in mind, that Joe has not trained extensively with the teacher and is not part of his group?

Should Joe have even asked for a bump in rank, given the fact that he hasnt spent time working with the seminar teacher?

 

[MJS]

I have a Kenpo teacher. I get my rank from him, when he feels that I'm ready. If I were up for rank, but the GM of our art was in the area, and I asked my teacher if I could test under him, sure, I see nothing wrong with that. I have my teachers blessing to do so.

If I went behind my teachers back, to someone else, to get rank, because I felt I was ready, but my teacher didn't, no, IMO, thats wrong.

If I was no longer affiliated with my teacher, but still taught Kenpo, and discovered that Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, etc., were in the area, doing seminars, so I go, and at some point, ask if I could test, IMO, I feel thats still wrong, due to the fact that I'm not a part of their groups, I may not be doing things the way they do them, in their own orgs., etc.

IMO, if you want rank, align yourself with a teacher, and put in some quality time, to improve your skill. Dont just think that because you havent had a rank promo. in X number of years, that you're worthy of a new rank. Put in the blood, sweat and tears and do it the right way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just tossing this out for opinion.

Would you take rank from someone in the same art that you also teach, but you are either not affiliated with this persons group, nor have you trained with this person on a regular basis?

For example: Lets say Joe has his own school. He has black belts in a few different arts. Joe brings in people for seminars from time to time. However, Joe is not affiliated with any particular teacher. Of course, at some point, your students are going to need to advance, so that means that Joe will need to advance somehow as well. Joe brings in someone to do a seminar. Joe at some point, during some 1 on 1 time with the seminar instructor, mentions that he's an independant group, he doesnt have a teacher to go to, but you feel that you're worthy of a bump in rank. So you drop some hints, subtly or not, about the seminar teacher awarding you rank.

Should the seminar instructor award Joe a new rank, again, keeping in mind, that Joe has not trained extensively with the teacher and is not part of his group?

Should Joe have even asked for a bump in rank, given the fact that he hasnt spent time working with the seminar teacher?

Depends.

If the teacher in question is of the appropriate rank to award Joe his next grade, Joe has the either required or accepted time in his current grade and the teacher puts Joe through a thorough test in which Joe has the potential to fail, and Joe legitimately passes, then I see no problem with the teacher awarding Joe a rank that Joe has earned through the successful challenge of a legitimate test.

Without a test, however, I feel that the teacher should not get involved in promoting Joe.

On a different note, Joe should be asking the teacher to test him, not to bump or promote him.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

My answers are a big fat "NO" across the board here. But I don't imagine that is a surprise to you...

I'll be a devil's advocate here and ask a question: Why do Joe's students need to "advance"?

Making such assumptions indicates a mindset heavily focused on business, rather than a natural and organic transmission of quality martial arts training.

This assumption that students always need to advance, is something that kind of drives me a bit nutzo. It makes rank into a goal, rather than a simple milestone along the way. It presents the notion that you cannot grow, cannot learn, cannot progress without some sort of outside reward and kudos along the way. Dangle that carrot out there... A new belt to wear. Another stripe to put on a belt. And I'm amazed at how many people who already hold high rank still seem to need this kind of validation. Maybe it's time to grow up instead. I personally hate it.

I think rank can be an OK thing, tho I've posted in the past that I really feel it ought to be done away with for Dan grades. That's another story tho. But I think it's bizarre to have the mindset that, I need more rank so that I can give my students more rank... hell, maybe ya ought to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do I actually have something to TEACH my students, can I help them grow in their training, highten and refine their skills, help them better understand their trainining? Or am I just handing out trinkets...?

 

[MJS]

Depends.

If the teacher in question is of the appropriate rank to award Joe his next grade,

Yes.

Joe has the either required or accepted time in his current grade and the teacher puts Joe through a thorough test in which Joe has the potential to fail, and Joe legitimately passes, then I see no problem with the teacher awarding Joe a rank that Joe has earned through the successful challenge of a legitimate test.

Without a test, however, I feel that the teacher should not get involved in promoting Joe.

On a different note, Joe should be asking the teacher to test him, not to bump or promote him.

Daniel

Ok, points taken. Let me ask you this: If the teacher does not put Joe a test, per se, but spends a certain amount of time working with him, ie: 4hrs and says that Joe needs work, should the teacher award a rank?

 

[MJS]

My answers are a big fat "NO" across the board here. But I don't imagine that is a surprise to you...

My friend, you know I value your opinions.

I'll be a devil's advocate here and ask a question: Why do Joe's students need to "advance"?

Making such assumptions indicates a mindset heavily focused on business, rather than a natural and organic transmission of quality martial arts training.

This assumption that students always need to advance, is something that kind of drives me a bit nutzo. It makes rank into a goal, rather than a simple milestone along the way. It presents the notion that you cannot grow, cannot learn, cannot progress without some sort of outside reward and kudos along the way. Dangle that carrot out there... A new belt to wear. Another stripe to put on a belt. And I'm amazed at how many people who already hold high rank still seem to need this kind of validation. Maybe it's time to grow up instead. I personally hate it.

I think rank can be an OK thing, tho I've posted in the past that I really feel it ought to be done away with for Dan grades. That's another story tho. But I think it's bizarre to have the mindset that, I need more rank so that I can give my students more rank... hell, maybe ya ought to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do I actually have something to TEACH my students, can I help them grow in their training, highten and refine their skills, help them better understand their trainining? Or am I just handing out trinkets...?

You asked why the students need to advance: Well, I'm sure I've shared my views on rank with you. IMO, its the skill and ability to perform the material that matters more than a new stripe. However, that being said, not everyone shares those views. If Joe was a 3rd degree, and his students are all 1st, then, if you use the rule of having to be at least 2 ranks higher than what you're testing someone for, and if Joe wants to promote people, then yeah, at some point, he's gonna need an advancement.

I do see your point though. I think today, many people focus on the rank, instead of the quality, but whatever....lol.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have a Kenpo teacher. I get my rank from him, when he feels that I'm ready. If I were up for rank, but the GM of our art was in the area, and I asked my teacher if I could test under him, sure, I see nothing wrong with that. I have my teachers blessing to do so.

Absolutely. Could actually be a great experience for both you and your teacher.

If I went behind my teachers back, to someone else, to get rank, because I felt I was ready, but my teacher didn't, no, IMO, thats wrong.

Barring some unethical reason on your teacher's part for you not having tested, I fully agree.

If I was no longer affiliated with my teacher, but still taught Kenpo, and discovered that Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, etc., were in the area, doing seminars, so I go, and at some point, ask if I could test, IMO, I feel thats still wrong, due to the fact that I'm not a part of their groups, I may not be doing things the way they do them, in their own orgs., etc.

If you can legitimately pass an actual test fully on your own merit (as opposed to passing it on your payment), I see no issue here on an ethical level.

This assumes that your non affiliation with your current teacher is not due to some organizational ban against you (the general you, not you specifically) or involves any ethical questions.

IMO, if you want rank, align yourself with a teacher, and put in some quality time, to improve your skill. Dont just think that because you havent had a rank promo. in X number of years, that you're worthy of a new rank. Put in the blood, sweat and tears and do it the right way.

Essentially, I agree with you. Though if you can pass Larry Tatum's test, and assuming that he is giving you a real test, chances are that you've put in the blood sweat and tears to learn the art right. On Larry's end (or whomever), if the candidate is not worthy of the new rank, then they should be failed and informed as to what areas need work in order to be worthy of said rank.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Absolutely. Could actually be a great experience for both you and your teacher.


Barring some unethical reason on your teacher's part for you not having tested, I fully agree.


If you can legitimately pass an actual test fully on your own merit (as opposed to passing it on your payment), I see no issue here on an ethical level.

This assumes that your non affiliation with your current teacher is not due to some organizational ban against you (the general you, not you specifically) or involves any ethical questions.


Essentially, I agree with you. Though if you can pass Larry Tatum's test, and assuming that he is giving you a real test, chances are that you've put in the blood sweat and tears to learn the art right. On Larry's end (or whomever), if the candidate is not worthy of the new rank, then they should be failed and informed as to what areas need work in order to be worthy of said rank.

Daniel

Nice Dan. For the record, this isn't a thread about me....its about Joe. My comments were simply a reflection of my thoughts. I have my teachers, and I dont plan on going outside of them to get rank. Of course, were Prof Presas still alive, and my teacher said I was ready and had his blessing, I think it'd be awesome to test in front of him.

 

[harlan]

Sure. Four hours is plenty of time to observe all of one's kata, cross-hands and feel their stuff, talk, and exchange relevant info about past training, goals, motivation, etc.

It depends on the motivation of both individuals involved...the understanding they come to and how honorable they are. Because one paid to have the teacher do a seminar, there is an unpleasant aroma associated with this ranking - a 'quid pro quo', 'I'll do for you if you'll do for me' kind of thing going on. Is it 'real' ranking, or an 'honorary' thing? On the other hand, teachers die and deadend opportunities for one's students to grow, and looking at an ancillary line of Goju for life-support seems reasonable.

But that being said, I'd personally not do it.

 

[Drac]

As I am not obsessed with rank my answer would be NO. I know of an alleged Grandmaster up here that awarded a Dan ranking to a female without any type of testing. He said it had nothing to do with her looks..

 

[Flying Crane]

My friend, you know I value your opinions.



You asked why the students need to advance: Well, I'm sure I've shared my views on rank with you. IMO, its the skill and ability to perform the material that matters more than a new stripe. However, that being said, not everyone shares those views. If Joe was a 3rd degree, and his students are all 1st, then, if you use the rule of having to be at least 2 ranks higher than what you're testing someone for, and if Joe wants to promote people, then yeah, at some point, he's gonna need an advancement.

I do see your point though. I think today, many people focus on the rank, instead of the quality, but whatever....lol.

sure, and I'm taking an extreme stance here to provoke an analysis of what rank really means, what it implies, how it ought to be used, how it is really being used.

I think this may be a symptom of this short attention span, I Want It Now mentality that is so pervasive in modern society. Instead of stepping back and looking at the situation objectively, everyone's subjective emotions get into the mix, and it always turns into: I Want More Rank, By God I Deserve It, Can't You Bozos See The Truth In What I'm Screaming At You??!!

Hey, life is what it is. If you trained under a teacher and he felt you deserved X rank, then that is where you are, until you undergo some quality training and your instructor (whether or not he's your original instructor or a new one) determines that you merit further rank. Until then, you simply are where you are. end of story. Even if there might be some truth in the notion that you COULD merit further rank.

But people take that and twist it around into a self-serving altruistic smoke screen. Oh, This Isn't For ME...It's for MY STUDENTS, After All. I Only Want The Best For THEM, And That Means I Need To Be Able To Give Them The Rank That They Deserve. And THAT Means I Need To Have The Rank That I KNOW I Deserve... SO GIMME SOME GODDAM RANK, GODDAMMIT!!!

I don't buy it.

Honestly, I don't understand why in the hell people want so much rank to begin with. Personally, I think it would be a burden.

I trained with a crazy capoeira mestre for a very short period of time. Even tho I believe he was, in all honestly, insane, he had a moment of lucidity when he explained that, don't be in a hurry for more rank. Once you have that high rank, you have to be perfect. Everybody is always questioning your rank, and they all line up to knock you down. If you fail, you fall harder than anyone else, because you are the mestre, and you cannot fail because the mestre is perfect...

Who wants that headache? No thanks.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes.



Ok, points taken. Let me ask you this: If the teacher does not put Joe a test, per se, but spends a certain amount of time working with him, ie: 4hrs and says that Joe needs work, should the teacher award a rank?

No. If someone is really up to par for the rank that he or she is seeking, the person working with him is unlikely to evaluate them with a "Joe needs work" assesment.

That kind of assessment is what one says about someone who is not ready or whom the teacher feels is lousy, but the teacher wishes to be charitable.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Sure. Four hours is plenty of time to observe all of one's kata, cross-hands and feel their stuff, talk, and exchange relevant info about past training, goals, motivation, etc.

there are other issues at play. What if the curriculum is different, and Joe doesn't have all the material that this other teacher would demand of his own students? How does he give the rank then? Under whose banner? His own? Knowing that Joe hasn't learned everything necessary, even if he HAS learned other stuff that this teacher would NOT require?

It gets confusing really quickly...

 

[Drac]

A Dan rank does not mean they will be a good teacher.

 

[MJS]

there are other issues at play. What if the curriculum is different, and Joe doesn't have all the material that this other teacher would demand of his own students? How does he give the rank then? Under whose banner? His own? Knowing that Joe hasn't learned everything necessary, even if he HAS learned other stuff that this teacher would NOT require?

It gets confusing really quickly...

Exactly! And thats why I feel that you should spend more than a few hours with someone. Each teacher could be doing their own thing, so....

 

[harlan]

Yes. But the original post did say it was of the same art. The presumption is that there would be prior knowledge of each other, the differences in lines, etc., and why I qualified it by stating they would have to come to an understanding.

there are other issues at play. What if the curriculum is different, and Joe doesn't have all the material that this other teacher would demand of his own students? How does he give the rank then? Under whose banner? His own? Knowing that Joe hasn't learned everything necessary, even if he HAS learned other stuff that this teacher would NOT require?

It gets confusing really quickly...

For example, if Kodokan Goju was for some odd reason to completely die off, and I was only a BB, I would seriously consider reaching out to the Jundokan, Meibukan, or some other branch of Goju if I had students. Again, it comes down to being honest in motivation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes. But the original post did say it was of the same art. The presumption is that there would be prior knowledge of each other, the differences in lines, etc., and why I qualified it by stating they would have to come to an understanding.



For example, if Kodokan Goju was for some odd reason to completely die off, and I was only a BB, I would seriously consider reaching out to the Jundokan, Meibukan, or some other branch of Goju if I had students. Again, it comes down to being honest in motivation.

yeah, you might think it's all the same but often it is not.

Kenpo is a good example. Even people who all studied directly under Ed Parker often now have a different curriculum, or at the very least they execute portions of the curriculum differently. Seems that none of it translates very well. Sort of, not quite, it's still different...

 

[clfsean]

Just tossing this out for opinion.

Would you take rank from someone in the same art that you also teach, but you are either not affiliated with this persons group, nor have you trained with this person on a regular basis?

For example: Lets say Joe has his own school. He has black belts in a few different arts. Joe brings in people for seminars from time to time. However, Joe is not affiliated with any particular teacher. Of course, at some point, your students are going to need to advance, so that means that Joe will need to advance somehow as well. Joe brings in someone to do a seminar. Joe at some point, during some 1 on 1 time with the seminar instructor, mentions that he's an independant group, he doesnt have a teacher to go to, but you feel that you're worthy of a bump in rank. So you drop some hints, subtly or not, about the seminar teacher awarding you rank.

Should the seminar instructor award Joe a new rank, again, keeping in mind, that Joe has not trained extensively with the teacher and is not part of his group?

Should Joe have even asked for a bump in rank, given the fact that he hasnt spent time working with the seminar teacher?

Nope...

 

[fighter_x]

If you know your own abilities, and can discern the various levels of abilities within your student base, everything else should take care of itself.

 

[Disco]

Rank and it's dubious nature.................

In today's martial arts world, rank is at the forefront of everything. Why?......because it became paramount for acceptance and "BUSINESS".

We (a generalization) have allowed ourselves to be duped into this ever demanding standard. I can remember when a person studied for years and made it to first Dan and that was more than enough. Folks stayed at that level for many years, because there was no major necessity to expand upon the status. The instructor I started with was only a first Dan and had been that rank for 20 years. He didn't feel any need for further status and there was no outside overtones that were present to foster the idea that additional rank status was mandated. Many of the disciplines only went up to 5th. But, time march's on and as usual, one-ups-man ship came flying in and we had a volcano of high ranks erupting. Personally, I look at the big influx of Korean instructors during the late 60's early 70's for initiating this trend. We've had this basic discussion before and things tended to stem around that after 1st/2nd Dan, there really wasn't anything that was new or so-called advanced to be learned, just add on variables of the same core elements and if you didn't know these, then you shouldn't have been awarded a Dan ranking in the first place, so the need for higher ranking was not a motivating force. But, as stated prior, today's world and it's political / monetary driving forces have forced us to seek upward mobility in ranking, to placate the mindset of the general public and the new world order of the martial arts. I'll offer this example.........went to a seminar back in 05 and the first day I wore a white belt. Even though my physical movements and technique application were beyond a white belt level, when I attempted to offer assistance, I was dismissed, for all they saw was the belt. The next day I wore a plain black belt and when again I offered any assistance, I was met with only moderate acceptance. The third day, I wore a black belt belt with master level stripes and it was like the gates of the bank vault were thrown open. Point being to this story is that the vast majority of folks within the arts are only interested in looking at your belt. The same techniques I did and attempted to help as a white belt and was rejected, I did with the striped belt on and people were fixated on the offering and more than eager to accept.

Bottom line to this rant,.............if you as an instructor feel the need to acquire additional ranking in order to assist your students and you are doing it in an honorable fashion, then go for it. Those that came before us and started this whole process didn't question this aspect, they just did it and we have to live with it........................