Kata

[brothershaw]

I know that in the katas there can be alot of information, however with so many kata to learn do you feel overload? To remember them plus to learn all the nuances?

 

[marlon]

Actually i feel challenged and excited. i go back and still learn new things from the first katas i was taught. I look at it as continous perfecting of what i will never get perfect. But i enjoy the journey very much


Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Navarre]

Like Marlon, I find them to be fun, challenging, and useful. I know about 24 kata. I'm not even sure if that's a lot or not. But I still work on the first one as much as the last one.

Certainly the techniques in the lower ones help me be ready for the higher ones. Sometimes the higher ones help me realize something new about the lower ones.

Although kata are important in my original karate system they do not even exist in my jujitsu system. But I still do them. To me they are like line drills, basic strikes, or sparring. It's all just another tool to help me develop myself.

I don't worry about the amount of katas or the number of moves. That distracts me from my focus. I instead try to get from them all that they can teach me and fuse that knowledge with my overall training.

 

[brothershaw]

if you work on the lower ones as much as the last ones, thats alot of work.
we dont have alot of formsin the system I practice now ,but for serious students its still alot of work and time.

 

[Grenadier]

I try to keep up with all kata that I've learned. Remembering all of them isn't too much of a problem; it's the interpretations that I sometimes have to really think hard and re-study on a regular basis, since it's nigh impossible to find training partners from some of the older styles. You can imagine all of the imaginary partners you want, but nothing can ever replace live people when it comes to performing the oyo / bunkai.

 

[arnisador]

If you learn them slowly, it should be OK...but if they come too quickly, they can get confused in your head! usually each has its own "flavor" though, which helps.

 

[terryl965]

Kata's or poomse is the esence of MA so one must take the time to learn it forward and backwards.

Terry

 

[twayman]

Kata's or poomse is the esence of MA so one must take the time to learn it forward and backwards.

Terry

Take this literally! Doing kata backwards reveals very good technique that may not be seen doing the kata forward. Also, a good idea to practice the kata hontai (spelling?) or on the other side of the body.

 

[Navarre]

I've done both of those, Twayman. There certainly make you think about your techniques all over again.

Although the execution should be the same when reversed sides I often find it harder. While it might be that it's simply the confusion of relearning the kata, I suspect it means that I am more prone to use one side of my body.

Although this is natural, it is also detrimental. My sensei was equally skilled from either side through practice alone. I try to work to be the same way.

 

[twayman]

Navarre,

Interesting to hear of others doing this. The usual response is in the order of WTF??? Why do that? or some other negative response.

 

[Navarre]

Well, some practitioners are purists in that they consider the katas almost sacred, not to be changed in any way. I assert that katas are a training tool, albeit with established tradition.

Therefore I have no problem with making alterations for the sake of training. I'm not defiling some holy ritual as I still know the true kata; I'm just pursuing variations to advance my art. That's what it's all about.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have created new katas to include techniques that were not included in the existing katas. I find it easier to remember my techniques when they are in the context of a kata, rather than as loose pieces of information that are floating around independently.

In Kenpo, we have many self-defense techniques, many of which are included in the kata, and many of which are not. These are the techniques that I have used in building new katas. I don't pretend they are magical or innovative new kata, but rather are a repackaging of the existing material that makes it easier to remember it all, and therefor I am more likely to practice it all.

Give it a try. You get to be creative, and think about what makes sense. it can be a rewarding exercise.

 

[twayman]

Well, some practitioners are purists in that they consider the katas almost sacred, not to be changed in any way. I assert that katas are a training tool, albeit with established tradition.

Therefore I have no problem with making alterations for the sake of training. I'm not defiling some holy ritual as I still know the true kata; I'm just pursuing variations to advance my art. That's what it's all about.

Could not agree more. The thing is most of the ones that knock the kind of training we are writing about do not understand much of what kata is about. Alot do not understand the bunkai and oyo-bunkai within. I had one go so far as to tell me that kata has no real value and separates useable technique away from kata.

Here is another training aid not sure if you have tried before or not. Take a kata and do it 250-300 times in a row. Set aside enough time with on interruptions and just start hammering the kata out. Very eye opening indeed.

 

[Flying Crane]

Could not agree more. The thing is most of the ones that knock the kind of training we are writing about do not understand much of what kata is about. Alot do not understand the bunkai and oyo-bunkai within. I had one go so far as to tell me that kata has no real value and separates useable technique away from kata.

Here is another training aid not sure if you have tried before or not. Take a kata and do it 250-300 times in a row. Set aside enough time with on interruptions and just start hammering the kata out. Very eye opening indeed.

I am also in agreement with what you are saying here.

One question: How long and how physical are your kata? most of mine in the Chinese arts are quite long and physical. If I focused on only one, I could maybe do it 15-20 times at most, if I do it properly, meaning at full speed. Some of these can take 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to do, and done at full speed. It is kind of like sprinting a half mile each time you do one. The thought of doing those 250 - 300 times makes me want to cry.

 

[twayman]

The thought of doing those 250 - 300 times makes me want to cry.

I know the feeling. I thought the same thing then I did it one afternoon. It took about 2 1/2 - 3 hours and I was drenched (in winter). Honestly the kata I did runs about 35-40 seconds at a good pace. For you 100 times . The goal here is to lock the kata into your muscles (soul?) and to do them with out thinking (mushin).
Good training especially if you can’t make it to the dojo or want to lose some weight. :bow:

 

[Flying Crane]

I know the feeling. I thought the same thing then I did it one afternoon. It took about 2 1/2 - 3 hours and I was drenched (in winter). Honestly the kata I did runs about 35-40 seconds at a good pace. For you 100 times . The goal here is to lock the kata into your muscles (soul?) and to do them with out thinking (mushin).
Good training especially if you can’t make it to the dojo or want to lose some weight. :bow:

Much of my training is done by myself, so I do focus much of my energy on forms. I train in a gym for a couple hours in the early morning before I go to work and I know how much of a good workout it can be. Most of the time I am pretty soaked by the time I am done. I am always amazed when people claim forms are worthless. It takes mental energy to understand them, but they are full of valuable info and definitely worth the effort. My problem is that I keep learning more and more from my sifu, but I always still want more. I have probably almost three dozen that I practice regularly, including empty-hand and weapons, external and Tai Chi Chuan, and a few others that I had learned in the past, but let go for various reasons. anyway, some interesting comments here.

 

[Eric Daniel]

Guy's
I would just like to tell you there is an interesting article about forms. Check out the link to read the article
http://judoinfo.com/kata.htm .

 

[twayman]

Guy's
I would just like to tell you there is an interesting article about forms. Check out the link to read the article
http://judoinfo.com/kata.htm .

Thanks... good insight good article. Don't take kata lightly.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I know that in the katas there can be alot of information, however with so many kata to learn do you feel overload? To remember them plus to learn all the nuances?

I don't feel any overload because the Karate styles I studied (Wado and Goju) does not have too many Kata. In Wado those under Dan ranks (Mudansha) only learn 9 Katas and of those 9, about 6 are so very short when compared to Katas from other styles. In Goju it's even simpler, the entire system consists of only 11 Katas, and when I studied Goju I only learn 4. Off course I have to be honest and tell you that of all those Kata from both Wado and Goju, I can execute none of them properly and I can memorize the movements of only 4 (Sanchin and Tensho from Goju, Naihanchi and Seishan from Wado). Maybe that's why I am stuck in 3rd Kyu for years

ANyway those 4 Kata I memorized, I do it everyday and it works wonders for my health. So Kata training is not a complete waste of time after all.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i believe kata is one of those elements of martial arts that is often the most underrated or overlooked for its value as a training tool.
IMO the very essence of form lies within each kata and that is why they are so important.
and whether your system does 5 or 50 forms, each one has certain nuances that will only be discovered through diligent practice and an observant mind.