Pinan Shodan

[DKI Girl]

I would like to open a discussion on Pinan Shodan.....

Do you teach it?
At what level do you teach it?

I have seen many styles not teach this kata til after black belt and many other styles teach it in the begining. We teach it as the second kata that our students learn right after Naihanchi Shodan.

I really enjoy the Pinan katas and feel that there is a wealth of information in them just waiting to be discovered.

dki girl

 

[Matt Stone]

I learned a form called Heian Shodan once upon a time... Aren't the Heian and Pinan forms the same, just named differently?

If that is the case, I can't fathom a system that would hold such a simple and basic form (I know that comment could get me in trouble - I know there are plenty of applications in even the simplest forms, but c'mon... :idunno: ) until black belt level...

Enlighten me, please... I am only a novice in karate, so a lot of this stuff is new to me.

Gambarimasu.

 

[Cthulhu]

Pinan and Heian are indeed pretty much the same kata, though there are differences specific to the various styles that train them. I first learned the version taught in TKD (no longer taught, though). I believe the Korean name for the form is Pyung An.

Anyhow, the Shodan doesn't refer to the rank at which the kata is taught...it indicates the first Pinan form. There are five Pinan/Heian forms, named shodan, nidan, sandan, yodan, and godan. Essentially, it just means Pinan/Heian 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. There may be some deep symbolic meaning to the names, but I was never made aware of them.

Similarly, there are the Naihanchi/Tekki forms, shodan, nidan, and sandan. At least, I'm pretty sure there are three.

Cthulhu

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I would like to open a discussion on Pinan Shodan.....

Do you teach it?
At what level do you teach it?

Yup, we teach it.
It is often taught after Pinan Nidan because Nidan has basically all the stances you will be taught in other kata and Nidan is a bit easier to learn than Shodan. As to when these kata are introduced is basically up to the teacher but is usually done just before or after Naihanchi 2 and 3.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I have seen many styles not teach this kata til after black belt and many other styles teach it in the begining. We teach it as the second kata that our students learn right after Naihanchi Shodan.
dki girl

I have never bought into the "advanced kata" basic kata" idea..............all kata are advanced as has been discussed somewhere around here. Some kata are just easier to learn than others.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have heard nidan being taught before shodan. Who started this idea of nidan first.
Bob:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Anyhow, the Shodan doesn't refer to the rank at which the kata is taught...it indicates the first Pinan form. There are five Pinan/Heian forms, named shodan, nidan, sandan, yodan, and godan. Essentially, it just means Pinan/Heian 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. There may be some deep symbolic meaning to the names, but I was never made aware of them.

Pinan is Okinawan, in Chinese Ping An which means Safety..............there is a saying in Chinese "Yi Lu Ping An" which means travel in safety or literally "One road safety". I am sure there are all kinds of nuances connected with that saying but I find it ironic that Itosu said if you know the Pinans you can travel in safety.

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Similarly, there are the Naihanchi/Tekki forms, shodan, nidan, and sandan. At least, I'm pretty sure there are three.

Cthulhu

Yup, 3 of them.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have heard nidan being taught before shodan. Who started this idea of nidan first.
Bob:asian:

I have no idea.

I know the Japanese styles switched the names of the kata so their shodan is actually nidan in Okinawa.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

In Ryu Te, is Pinan Shodan taught first. Followed by Nidan.
Bob :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I have never bought into the "advanced kata" basic kata" idea..............all kata are advanced as has been discussed somewhere around here. Some kata are just easier to learn than others.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to apply this philosophy to Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan and really all five of this series? Yes there are certainly applications in them but they are very simple forms. Surely they qualify as basic or relatively simple kata compared say to a Seiuchin or the like?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have seen and practiced this form under 4 diffrent systems that I studied. In the TKD system I learned it as my third form the first 3 being even more basic(simple front,horse, cat stance forms with a single punch, much like the Tekki Forms) .
In the other systems it was either the first or 2nd form .
A few diffrences occure from school to school and system to system but all are verry simular.
Shadow

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
Bob:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



Isn't it a bit of a stretch to apply this philosophy to Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan and really all five of this series? Yes there are certainly applications in them but they are very simple forms. Surely they qualify as basic or relatively simple kata compared say to a Seiuchin or the like?

Don't let looks deceive you, there is a lot of good "stuff" in those kata.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is there somewhere to view a clip of it in motion? I'm familiar with the Kenpo and Arnis forms, however its my understanding that they are quite a bit shorter than the Karate ones.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
Bob:asian:

I don't know the guy you mentioned but Seikichi Odo was an excellent technician and had one hell of a punch.

One problem when a famous teachers dies is many nut cases claim to have studied from them.

 

[Deathtrap101]

Hey! i took home gold in my last tournament(my 2nd tournament(lost my first tournament doing pinan nidan, i lost balance ) doing pinan shodan. Good kata. Actualy i didnt really win with that kata, we had to do 2 and i was in 2nd with the first round behind by like .2 points and my next kata through me up there and i won. Would of took home gold too but they gipped me....

I am a yellow belt and to get orange pinan shodan is one of the requirements.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Just noticed the Bruce Hielman" in the upper left hand corner.
Is that the person on the video you mentioned?

 

[RyuShiKan]

There are differences in the Pinnans between most groups, some are slight and some are big.

For example, the JKA , Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai and Shotokan versions are pretty similar where as the Wado versions especially Nidan is very different.
Why I don't know because Ohtsuka, founder of Wado, studied from Funakoshi so you would think they would have the same version.

 

[kenmpoka]

Hello All,

There are two schools of taught as to the origin of these froms:

1) Devised by Anko Itosu from the Kata Kusanku (Koshokun, Kanku, Kwanku), to be introduced in the school system in Okinawa

2) Devised from a kata named Chanan. The research was done by Morio Higaonna Sensei of Goju Ryu.(more recent)

The order was switched by Gichin Funakoshi since the orginal pinan 1 was a more difficult kata than pinan 2. So original Pinan Shodan became Pinan Nidan on the mainland Japan and later renamed Heian Nidan.

Most schools in Okinawa stayed with the original order but teach Nidan first and then Shodan.

On the mainland though, some group have kept the original name (pinan) but follow the switched order, such as Wado Ryu.
Some Shito Ryu factions use Heian, and others like Hayashi-Ha use the pinan name.
Shotokan factions use the Heian name and follow the switched oder. Also Shindo Jinen Ryu follows the Shotokan order.

Though the techniques are simple, they can be expanded upon in oyo bunkai. Nidan, Sandan, yondan and godan have some interesting bunkai and oyo bunkai.

Now lets talk bunkai, shall we?

What do you think the application is for the first opening move in (original)Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. Uchi ude uke/ Age uke?
or as some schools say: Soto ude uke/Age uke? I guess many possibilities. So let's hear some.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka


Now lets talk bunkai, shall we?

What do you think the application is for the first opening move in (original)Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. Uchi ude uke/ Age uke?
or as some schools say: Soto ude uke/Age uke? I guess many possibilities. So let's hear some.

:asian:

Basic interpretation...................It's a throw

 

[kenmpoka]

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