Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[Charlemagne]

They are good at what they do when it comes to the jiu jitsu, which is what is all about.

That's what I'm there for.

I don't know if they have proven the 90% thing, but I think it is pretty fair to say that they have proven that if someone wants to take you to the ground, even if you are a trained martial artist, it is pretty hard to stop them.

As for the propaganda machine, some of that criticism is fair. I would say however, that they, far more than most, have put themselves out there in a real way to prove that what they do works, and as such, have earned at least some right to talk up what they do. If all martial artists held themselves to a similar standard of real world performance we would have a lot fewer people getting ripped off.

 

[Ironbear24]

That's what I'm there for.

I don't know if they have proven the 90% thing, but I think it is pretty fair to say that they have proven that if someone wants to take you to the ground, even if you are a trained martial artist, it is pretty hard to stop them.

As for the propaganda machine, some of that criticism is fair. I would say however, that they, far more than most, have put themselves out there in a real way to prove that what they do works, and as such, have earned at least some right to talk up what they do. If all martial artists held themselves to a similar standard of real world performance we would have a lot fewer people getting ripped off.

Charlatans will exist in every style. Unfortunately there are some in bjj as well, the thing you gotta realize is with the gracies, many of their fights went to the floor because well, they forced the fight to go there.

In all honesty they wanted the fight to go their because that is where they are at their best. They do that to eliminate their opponents ability to punch, kick, ect by taking them to the floor where they are forced to grapple.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah you're right on that. They all ended in striking rang and clinch range.

I don't agree about the most lethal damage comes from ground range though, you can get kicked in the neck or the head and die from striking range, I will say that the ground range has potential to end fights very quick. Especially if the opponent is on the bottom position since they have to fight gravity + their own body weight + your own body weight.

You have to look at the averages on that one. The chances of someone punching or kicking you and killing you is very slim. Typically deaths from striking occurs from people getting knocked out and then hitting their head on a hard surface.

Turn that around and consider the chances of serious injury or death if someone is on top of you and dropping punches and elbows, or gripping your head and smacking it directly to the concrete. Likewise, them standing over you and kicking or curb stomping your head. In a situation like that, The chances of death or serious trauma are magnified.

 

[Charlemagne]

I was skeptical about it at first, then I did it and it was actually very easy once they are in such position, when the opponent is grounded like that you can stomp them, punch or elbow many vital areas or slap them or give them a wet Willy. They also will be horrible at fighting back unless they have some experience.

All true. I don't deny any of that.

My paradigm of self-defense is one where I wish to consider multiple attackers, the potential presence of my wife and child who I need to look after, and the possibility of weapons. These considerations color my perception about what is, and is not, desirable for me to do. Going to the ground where there is more than one person is a crap show, as I am sure you will agree. And, though there are some people doing some really good work with BJJ and weapons grappling these days, it still isn't a good situation to be in. As such, I really have no desire to go there if I don't have to.

I added BJJ to my training because the other guy gets a vote, it's a great workout, and it's fun to do.

 

[Ironbear24]

All true. I don't deny any of that.

My paradigm of self-defense is one where I wish to consider multiple attackers, the potential presence of my wife and child who I need to look after, and the possibility of weapons. These considerations color my perception about what is, and is not, desirable for me to do. Going to the ground where there is more than one person is a crap show, as I am sure you will agree. And, though there are some people doing some really good work with BJJ and weapons grappling these days, it still isn't a good situation to be in. As such, I really have no desire to go there if I don't have to.

I train BJJ because the other guy gets a vote, it is a great workout, and it is fun to do.

In all honesty if you want home defense just get a cheap pistol from a pawn shop, most of the time burglars are going to be armed and no matter what the martial arts is a gun tends to beat you.

Unless of course they are stupid enough to try and shoot you up close. Bjj is a good workout for sure though, my sifu is a blue belt in it and sometimes shows us a few things from it. Hopefully it helps me lose some weight, right now I am sitting at 212 when I had previously lost 8 pounds. It seems to jump up and down between those 8.

 

[Charlemagne]

Charlatans will exist in every style. Unfortunately there are some in bjj as well, the thing you gotta realize is with the gracies, many of their fights went to the floor because well, they forced the fight to go there.

In all honesty they wanted the fight to go their because that is where they are at their best. They do that to eliminate their opponents ability to punch, kick, ect by taking them to the floor where they are forced to grapple.

No disagreement there. Relson Gracie even said that when he would get the mount on someone and start punching them that Helio would yell at him because he wanted it to end with a submission.

As for charlatans in the art, yes there are some, but the system itself is sound, which was my point earlier There are a bunch of other knuckleheads out there making crap systems up that never put it on the line. In addition, the BJJ community at large cares enough about the quality of their art to call out people who are actual charlatans in a way that other martial artists simply don't do. They go out of their way to expose frauds.

 

[Charlemagne]

In all honesty if you want home defense just get a cheap pistol from a pawn shop, most of the time burglars are going to be armed and no matter what the martial arts is a gun tends to beat you.

I don't consider martial arts to be a viable home defense option, sorry for not making that more clear. I'm talking about being out and about. At home, I definitely go with the firearm, though I a bit of a gun snob, so it won't be a cheap pawn shop pistol for me.

 

[Ironbear24]

No disagreement there. Relson Gracie even said that when he would get the mount on someone and start punching them that Helio would yell at him because he wanted it to end with a submission.

As for charlatans in the art, yes there are some, but the system itself is sound, which was my point earlier There are a bunch of other knuckleheads out there making crap systems up that never put it on the line. In addition, the BJJ community at large cares enough about the quality of their art to call out people who are actual charlatans in a way that other martial artists simply don't do. They go out of their way to expose frauds.

Yup. What exposes a fake style is competition. If the style never fights then what good is it? How will you know if it is even viable? This is why I ask all of the dojos I have been in if they compete in full contact competitions. I have had a few say no, that they are " A self defense only stlye."

And well I took my money somewhere else.

 

[Buka]

The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.

In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.

The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.

There is no question that you know far more about BJJ than I do. (gee, ya think?) I mean I know zero, zip, nada, I'm just a shrub, a weak shrub at that, you're purple and I'm white. But, as I was taught - position is key and that's what I base everything on, position. I believe that the entire point of BJJ, at least as how I was taught, is to take away space from your opponent.
From there, it's ice cream.

As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson. Specifically for striking while grappling. So far, it's worked pretty good.

 

[Charlemagne]

Yup. What exposes a fake style is competition. If the style never fights then what good is it? How will you know if it is even viable? This is why I ask all of the dojos I have been in if they compete in full contact competitions. I have had a few say no, that they are " A self defense only stlye."

And well I took my money somewhere else.

I understand. Today it is pretty easy to figure out which systems are trained in such a way to promote transfer of learning to a real situation and which ones are not. And to be fair, some things are not really appropriate for sparring, that argument does have merit. In addition, I am not always concerned about competition either, though I get where you are coming from there. However, not competing doesn't mean never validating your system or pressure testing your abilities. For example, in the FMA system I train now, it's not like we can do full contact stick or knife sparring every darn day, that isn't remotely practical. But what we can do, is do those things once and a while, and in other times do full speed technical sparring where it is obvious who had the timing, range, and placement that would have been a legit strike. This helps us to see which aspects of the system we are able to pull off in real time and which ones we cannot, which serves as a validation of the system, and provides a guide for which things we need to develop. I see no reason other systems cannot do something similar. And, to give credit where it is due, some guys are doing those things, even in systems where their peers are not.

Grappling is unique in that you can spar pretty much every time you train without anyone really getting injured. Striking and weapons arts are not so lucky in that regard.

 

[Charlemagne]

As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson...

OK, so I am a bit jealous on that one.

 

[Ironbear24]

Striking sparring you do it when your limbs heal and your bruises are bearable.

Grappling you do it when your mat burns heal.

 

[Charlemagne]

Striking sparring you do it when your limbs heal and your bruises are bearable.

I believe in hard sparring, but some people can't walk around all bruised up all the time, and have to time their harder sessions in such a way that will work for them. I work at a university, so I try to do more of that sort of thing in the summer when I am not teaching. I forgot to wear a long sleeved shirt once after training and showed up with huge bruises all over my arms from hard knife tapping drills and a couple of my students about had a cow. I had to play off the bruises, but it did remind me that I need to be more careful about such things. Someone who works in a corporate setting might have even a tougher time with things. Life happens.

Grappling you do it when your mat burns heal.

Or you just tape them up and roll again the next class. ;o At least that seems to be how I am getting by so far, though I am certainly no grappling master.

 

[Hanzou]

There is no question that you know far more about BJJ than I do. (gee, ya think?) I mean I know zero, zip, nada, I'm just a shrub, a weak shrub at that, you're purple and I'm white. But, as I was taught - position is key and that's what I base everything on, position. I believe that the entire point of BJJ, at least as how I was taught, is to take away space from your opponent.
From there, it's ice cream.

As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson. Specifically for striking while grappling. So far, it's worked pretty good.

Position is absolutely the key, I was talking more to the point of learning those positions in the first place. We learn them so that we're not stuck in inferior positions and getting our heads caved in.

Were you a direct student of Rickson? If so, like Char I'm jealous.

 

[kuniggety]

Buka is an old man. I learned from Rickson's student's student.

 

[Jaeimseu]

You have to look at the averages on that one. The chances of someone punching or kicking you and killing you is very slim. Typically deaths from striking occurs from people getting knocked out and then hitting their head on a hard surface.

Turn that around and consider the chances of serious injury or death if someone is on top of you and dropping punches and elbows, or gripping your head and smacking it directly to the concrete. Likewise, them standing over you and kicking or curb stomping your head. In a situation like that, The chances of death or serious trauma are magnified.

Have to agree with this. I'm pretty certain that that's the reason you see head gear worn in Taekwondo competition. It's not the initial impact of the kick or punch, but the head hitting the floor that does the worst damage.


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[Buka]

Position is absolutely the key, I was talking more to the point of learning those positions in the first place. We learn them so that we're not stuck in inferior positions and getting our heads caved in.

Were you a direct student of Rickson? If so, like Char I'm jealous.

I used to train with a lot of people. Back in 92, one of them, Joe, was a Jeet Kune Do Instructor. One day I stopped by to say hi as I was passing through that town. He says I should come down on Friday and plan on spending the weekend there. Says his Jits instructor is coming to teach all weekend. Some guy name of "Hickson". So I go. (Joe was a purple belt at the time) We trained Fri, Sat and Sun. Talk about open your eyes, damn. Rickson wasn't teaching us straight BJJ, rather, he was teaching us how to apply what we do while on the ground.

The following month was the same, three days training with Hickson. This time my wife came. Like the first time, there was only a handful of people. (can you imagine?) Rickson is one of the nicest people I've ever met, a true gentleman. So....while rolling on Saturday, Rickson lets my wife submit him, as he only does with women and little kids. (at least at that time) She slams him on the shoulder and barks, "Don't you dare treat me like a girl, you treat me like a black belt, I've earned that right!" Oh, Christ, my jaw drops, I'm thinking "shut up, shut up, what are you doing?" My wife is not what you would call a shy person. Rickson looks down and says, "you are right, my friend, I apologize." From that day forward he kind of adopted her. Every time he needed somebody to use to show a technique, he used her. Every time he partnered with someone for drills, he did with her. (I'm still jealous.) Worked RNC with her till the cows came home. She has one nasty choke, no foolin'.

This goes on for the following year. Every month or so, he would come in for three days. After a few months I brought my top black belts. After a while I had him come to my dojo. I limited the classes to thirty people, about a hundred were watching. It was nuts. The following month I had him back again to teach my police department. I had told the bosses "we need to seriously change our DT program."
Again, he wasn't teaching pure BJJ, but rather, how to do what we do while on the ground, and how to control people. After that weekend they gave me Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell I wanted to in DT. It was sweet!

When the first UFC came on tv, I was with a big group of guys to watch it. Everyone started to bet on who would win. When I saw Rickson's kid brother was fighting, I covered all bets. They thought I was crazy. I almost felt guilty. Almost. I won eight hundred bucks.

A couple years later my wife and I moved to Maui. Our dogs were in quarantine. (standard procedure)
Rickson had told us his brother teaches there. We went to the University of Hawaii to train with Relson. Eventually ended up going to his house and taking privates from one of his purple belts in his garage.

When quarantine was over we moved to Maui. Rickson had a school there at the time. Romalo Barros, Rickson's first black, belt ran it. It was a whole lot of fun.

I've often said I was the luckiest person in the world when it came to Martial Arts. And I ain;t kidding when I say that. Just in the right place at the right time for some unknown reason. Consider this - the first three Jits guys I ever rolled with were Rickson, Relson and Romalo. I mean, WTF, I don't deserve that...but I'll take it.

Here's a couple pics you might get a kick out of.

My wife and her teacher.

My sergeant, who benched 500 pounds at the time, and wrestled his whole life. Rickson treated him like a baby. Honest to God, like a baby cradled in his arms.

I have another pic that's really cool, one of the oddest experiences rolling I've ever had. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe you can explain it to me.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[elder999]

Don't know where it came from, or who started it. I don't think it is unique to the Gracie family though.

A bunch of that "90%" went like this:

One guy hits the other guy, aaannnd......

.........the other guy goes to the ground!

 

[Hanzou]

I used to train with a lot of people. Back in 92, one of them, Joe, was a Jeet Kune Do Instructor. One day I stopped by to say hi as I was passing through that town. He says I should come down on Friday and plan on spending the weekend there. Says his Jits instructor is coming to teach all weekend. Some guy name of "Hickson". So I go. (Joe was a purple belt at the time) We trained Fri, Sat and Sun. Talk about open your eyes, damn. Rickson wasn't teaching us straight BJJ, rather, he was teaching us how to apply what we do while on the ground.

The following month was the same, three days training with Hickson. This time my wife came. Like the first time, there was only a handful of people. (can you imagine?) Rickson is one of the nicest people I've ever met, a true gentleman. So....while rolling on Saturday, Rickson lets my wife submit him, as he only does with women and little kids. (at least at that time) She slams him on the shoulder and barks, "Don't you dare treat me like a girl, you treat me like a black belt, I've earned that right!" Oh, Christ, my jaw drops, I'm thinking "shut up, shut up, what are you doing?" My wife is not what you would call a shy person. Rickson looks down and says, "you are right, my friend, I apologize." From that day forward he kind of adopted her. Every time he needed somebody to use to show a technique, he used her. Every time he partnered with someone for drills, he did with her. (I'm still jealous.) Worked RNC with her till the cows came home. She has one nasty choke, no foolin'.

This goes on for the following year. Every month or so, he would come in for three days. After a few months I brought my top black belts. After a while I had him come to my dojo. I limited the classes to thirty people, about a hundred were watching. It was nuts. The following month I had him back again to teach my police department. I had told the bosses "we need to seriously change our DT program."
Again, he wasn't teaching pure BJJ, but rather, how to do what we do while on the ground, and how to control people. After that weekend they gave me Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell I wanted to in DT. It was sweet!

When the first UFC came on tv, I was with a big group of guys to watch it. Everyone started to bet on who would win. When I saw Rickson's kid brother was fighting, I covered all bets. They thought I was crazy. I almost felt guilty. Almost. I won eight hundred bucks.

A couple years later my wife and I moved to Maui. Our dogs were in quarantine. (standard procedure)
Rickson had told us his brother teaches there. We went to the University of Hawaii to train with Relson. Eventually ended up going to his house and taking privates from one of his purple belts in his garage.

When quarantine was over we moved to Maui. Rickson had a school there at the time. Romalo Barros, Rickson's first black, belt ran it. It was a whole lot of fun.

I've often said I was the luckiest person in the world when it came to Martial Arts. And I ain;t kidding when I say that. Just in the right place at the right time for some unknown reason. Consider this - the first three Jits guys I ever rolled with were Rickson, Relson and Romalo. I mean, WTF, I don't deserve that...but I'll take it.

Here's a couple pics you might get a kick out of.

My wife and her teacher.

My sergeant, who benched 500 pounds at the time, and wrestled his whole life. Rickson treated him like a baby. Honest to God, like a baby cradled in his arms.

I have another pic that's really cool, one of the oddest experiences rolling I've ever had. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe you can explain it to me.

Sorry for the long post.

Okay, now I'm INSANELY jealous....

 

[Charlemagne]

Okay, now I'm INSANELY jealous....

Yep. I have no problem admitting that at all.