Jr. Black Belt Test

[Steve]

Here is something else to ponder. I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old. So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.

My BJJ school takes kids starting at 3. Of course, it falls firmly into what sl4drew mentioned early in the thread. The program is age appropriate. At 3-5, they mostly practice tumbling, get lots of exercise and learn some very basic stuff. The older kids start working self defense and incorporate some sparring.

It's commercially viable, has lots of room for kids to advance and receive recognition, but at the same time maintains standards. Everyone wins.

I've said before, I think kids learn a lot more valuable life lesson WORKING for and earning something based upon merit than based upon seniority/longevity. While tenacity should be praised, rank and advancement should be based upon ability and achievement.

Standards and age specific programs are not mutually exclusive, however. It's possible to have both.

 

[JadeDragon3]

All I know is that when I walked (or should I say crawled) away from my b.b. test I felt like I totally earned my black sash. My Sifu beat me like a drum when we sparred. I had a foot print (size 12) embedded on my ribs from where he side kicked me.....lol. I was big for my age and could hold my own against adults at age 16. I guess because I was on the wrestling team in high school so I was built pretty good then. Of course age has taken it's toll on me.......LOL.

 

[MJS]

Aaaahhh struck a cord there didn't I..No one said you weren't allowed to call them like you see em. You can bash anybody you want to, but while you do just remember that somewhere in your training hall there exists a code of conduct that has words like etiquette, honor, and respect.

LOL, dude, you didn't strike anything. However, I think some of my posts have touched a nerve or two with you. Not just in this thread either. So, you're saying I should respect someone who runs a Mcdojo and cheats people out of their money, by making them believe that they're actually good? Umm..yeah, ok.

This kid got his JR black belt, so what. Does it make you any more or less of a martial artist? Is there injustice in the world yup, is there rank inflation yuuup, is there people out there making a ton of money teaching junk I suppose so I read the so called martial arts mags, get the emails telling me how to better run my school by charging for every little thing I offer.

Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along.

Phew sounds like you been holding that in a long time man, you shouldn't let the little things bother you, but hey you got a vendetta thats fine have at it. I like you am offering my opinion. I do not think teaching kids is a bad idea, I think that anyone can learn something from the martial arts. Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.

LOL, its no vendetta, although, like you've done in so many other posts, you assume I'm talking about someone specifically. Like I said, I know what I do, and I sure know what the others do, and in the end, its those people that'll have to live with the rep. that they bring upon themselves.

And you should know by now there isn't any winning, just playing the game.....oh and I believe I said in my first post I won't be commenting on the clip.

Peace brotha

Really bro, why are you in this thread? I'm not the only one who has said something negative about the clip, yet you pick my posts. Hmm...is it because you dislike my habit of pointing out some less than honest folks in the MA world? Keep on drinking the kool aid bro.

Hopefully, when that East Coast gathering come around, we can get along, share some training with each other, and kick back afterwards and have some good convo. without the politics and other assorted crap.

 

[KempoGuy06]

What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?

I say 18 because ive seen the maturity level of some of the kids at my school and knew my own at that age. some if not all of them can not handle that responsibility until they are 18. I may change my mind as I watch them grow but thats my opinion on it now

B

 

[JTKenpo]

LOL, dude, you didn't strike anything. However, I think some of my posts have touched a nerve or two with you. Not just in this thread either. So, you're saying I should respect someone who runs a Mcdojo and cheats people out of their money, by making them believe that they're actually good? Umm..yeah, ok.



Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along.



LOL, its no vendetta, although, like you've done in so many other posts, you assume I'm talking about someone specifically. Like I said, I know what I do, and I sure know what the others do, and in the end, its those people that'll have to live with the rep. that they bring upon themselves.




Really bro, why are you in this thread? I'm not the only one who has said something negative about the clip, yet you pick my posts. Hmm...is it because you dislike my habit of pointing out some less than honest folks in the MA world? Keep on drinking the kool aid bro.

Hopefully, when that East Coast gathering come around, we can get along, share some training with each other, and kick back afterwards and have some good convo. without the politics and other assorted crap.

I wasn't picking on your threads, my response just fit better responding to that particular post. Do I think you should respect someone who is cheating somebody else no, and if you think I am drinking the coolaid you don't know me very well.

I hold no disrespect for your views or anyone elses views on the topic but when I hear things like this all I see is the last tournament I attended (as a spectator it has been a lot longer since I competed) and watching fathers verbally bash their kids becuase they didn't win or so called sensei's screaming at students for 2nd place. I know sounds like the scene out of karate kid but it really happened and it really bothered me.

I don't think kids that get their jr bb think that they can take on adults or even kids a lot bigger then them. Then again some of the most uncoordinated adults I have met thought they were tuff as nails.

Anyway, of course we will be able to have some fun training and learn from each other....some of my best friends don't agree with a thing I say just ask my wife.

 

[JTKenpo]

Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along. quote]

No one art is a laughing stock, they all are to somebody. You will find the same politics the same lack of quality and the same devious instructors in all the arts some where along the line. and yes that is sad but true

 

[KELLYG]

JMS
Thanks for the video's. Especially the young lady doing her form. I am not familiar with the form that she is doing but I see what each technique is designed for >> I see the fight<<< if that makes any since to ya. The young man in the op I did not.
If each of these two were in street cloths in a park preforming, one I would see a fight the other ????

 

[DavidCC]

What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?

You were clearly not a child, and not testing for a "Junior BB".

 

[14 Kempo]

Simply stated, a Jr. Black Belt is NOT a Black Belt, thus the Jr. preceeding it, usually accompanied with some sort of stripe, color or insignia on the belt that seperates it from an adult or Dan ranked BB.

Personally, I have not awarded a Jr. BB to anybody, but I've seen some awarded. In my mind, some were deserved, others weren't. From what I saw in the OP video, a belt above blue would not have been deserved and quite frankly it seemed to be a joke (although I realize it wasn't).

JMHO

 

[Tez3]

Could you clarify for me what you mean by basic martial arts? What or should I say how much material are you teaching?

For the 4-7 year olds ( I'll use English) they do front snap punch, reverse punch, rising and hook punch plus back fist. Kicks will be front snap kick, axe kick and roundhouse and jumping front kick which they love. They learn a little blocking kata so they have inside, outside and high blocks. They'll do knees as well. Also they learn to breakfall ( so easy for them I get very jealous lol) and a couple of basic Judo throws. We have small foam nunchakus which they love doing. each activity is only for a few minutes so they don't lose concentration. It should be fun while they are learning, they don't need to know that something is helping hand eye cordination or listening skills.
Its not all done in one lesson of course! they'll play games like musical shadow sparring, kicks punches etc until the music stops and they have to stand still in a shape/move I can see. We have relays races with kicks bags and I set up an assault course using bags to jump over, kick shields put so they crawl through, bags for them to kick etc.
The lesson is three quarters of an hour, they start with a warm up then stretches then a game of dodgeball to get the high spirits out so they can concentrate on a few minutes work then a boisterous game then some more 'work' then we will probably play bulldog,then line up and go over very quickly anything new so they can remember it, bow off.
What we find is that they settle easier into the 'big' class when they go up than others of the same age who've not been to the little class.
I'd any of them volunteer to take the warm up I let them, it's brilliant watching a little one have the confidence to get up and take them through the simple moves we do. They look so proud when you bow to them and say thank you!
The class isn't regarded as a baby sitting service by any parent but I will tell any mum who's looking harrassed to get off either home or to the cafe for a bit of time to herself and I'll hang onto the the kids until the next class starts so they can have an hour to themselves. During big deployments I'll have extra classes as well for the same reason. I've been in that position and know what an hour of peace is worth.
As I said we don't do black belts for kids but the children on the whole we teach are perhaps quite mature even the little ones, they change homes and schools every couple of years, have been over most of Europe if not more though that in itself can cause problems.

 

[MJS]

What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?

All I know is that when I walked (or should I say crawled) away from my b.b. test I felt like I totally earned my black sash. My Sifu beat me like a drum when we sparred. I had a foot print (size 12) embedded on my ribs from where he side kicked me.....lol. I was big for my age and could hold my own against adults at age 16. I guess because I was on the wrestling team in high school so I was built pretty good then. Of course age has taken it's toll on me.......LOL.

KG6 pretty much summed it up. The person in the original clip was nowhere near the age of 16-18. My thoughts again, were in line with KG....the older someone is, we hope that maturity comes along with it, as well as what a BB really means. Judging by your description of the test, it sounds like it was pretty rough. I'd imagine that your teacher expected you to perform at 150%. I'm didn't see that in the original clip. The other clips I posted....yes, those were much more intense.

 

[MJS]

My BJJ school takes kids starting at 3. Of course, it falls firmly into what sl4drew mentioned early in the thread. The program is age appropriate. At 3-5, they mostly practice tumbling, get lots of exercise and learn some very basic stuff. The older kids start working self defense and incorporate some sparring.

It's commercially viable, has lots of room for kids to advance and receive recognition, but at the same time maintains standards. Everyone wins.

I've said before, I think kids learn a lot more valuable life lesson WORKING for and earning something based upon merit than based upon seniority/longevity. While tenacity should be praised, rank and advancement should be based upon ability and achievement.

Standards and age specific programs are not mutually exclusive, however. It's possible to have both.

For the 4-7 year olds ( I'll use English) they do front snap punch, reverse punch, rising and hook punch plus back fist. Kicks will be front snap kick, axe kick and roundhouse and jumping front kick which they love. They learn a little blocking kata so they have inside, outside and high blocks. They'll do knees as well. Also they learn to breakfall ( so easy for them I get very jealous lol) and a couple of basic Judo throws. We have small foam nunchakus which they love doing. each activity is only for a few minutes so they don't lose concentration. It should be fun while they are learning, they don't need to know that something is helping hand eye cordination or listening skills.
Its not all done in one lesson of course! they'll play games like musical shadow sparring, kicks punches etc until the music stops and they have to stand still in a shape/move I can see. We have relays races with kicks bags and I set up an assault course using bags to jump over, kick shields put so they crawl through, bags for them to kick etc.
The lesson is three quarters of an hour, they start with a warm up then stretches then a game of dodgeball to get the high spirits out so they can concentrate on a few minutes work then a boisterous game then some more 'work' then we will probably play bulldog,then line up and go over very quickly anything new so they can remember it, bow off.
What we find is that they settle easier into the 'big' class when they go up than others of the same age who've not been to the little class.
I'd any of them volunteer to take the warm up I let them, it's brilliant watching a little one have the confidence to get up and take them through the simple moves we do. They look so proud when you bow to them and say thank you!
The class isn't regarded as a baby sitting service by any parent but I will tell any mum who's looking harrassed to get off either home or to the cafe for a bit of time to herself and I'll hang onto the the kids until the next class starts so they can have an hour to themselves. During big deployments I'll have extra classes as well for the same reason. I've been in that position and know what an hour of peace is worth.
As I said we don't do black belts for kids but the children on the whole we teach are perhaps quite mature even the little ones, they change homes and schools every couple of years, have been over most of Europe if not more though that in itself can cause problems.

Thank you both for your replies. I'll try to touch on areas of each of your posts. The babysitting comment that I made earlier...IMHO, I feel that a parent should be supportive of any activity that their child is doing. I also don't feel that a child should be forced into taking lessons, if its something they really don't want to do, but instead something that the parent wants. Kids are going to pick up on that. I say this because I've seen it. Kids would come and go, and I'd have to wonder if they even had a parent, because I never saw them. And its these same people, who would complain when it came time to a stripe or promotion, that their child was falling behind. Hmm...well, ya think maybe you should show up from time to time, so the inst. can talk with you?

Material for that age was usually half of what was required for older kids. As Tez said, I too would make alot of the learning, into a 'game' so it would appear more fun to the kids.

As I said, I'm not opposed to the use of the Jr. BB. However, seeing that this is one step so to speak below the real deal, I'd think that the child who is wearing it would have a) solid stances, b) focus and intensity, c) power in their punches and kicks. IMO, going thru a kata, its a pre-set series of moves, so basically, its as if you're going thru an imaginary fight. So if thats the case, one would think that a, b, and c would be included in that.

 

[MJS]

I wasn't picking on your threads, my response just fit better responding to that particular post. Do I think you should respect someone who is cheating somebody else no, and if you think I am drinking the coolaid you don't know me very well.

I made that comment because I got the impression, when you mentioned the code of conduct, that those views should be upheld in every case. Thanks for the clarification.

I hold no disrespect for your views or anyone elses views on the topic but when I hear things like this all I see is the last tournament I attended (as a spectator it has been a lot longer since I competed) and watching fathers verbally bash their kids becuase they didn't win or so called sensei's screaming at students for 2nd place. I know sounds like the scene out of karate kid but it really happened and it really bothered me.

I've seen that before as well. I've had parents actually leave the seating area and come out onto the training floor to yell, coach, or whatever. Needless to say I had to stop and tell them to return to the proper area, as their actions were taking away from the rest of the class. And what you describe is the #1 reason why I began to develop a dislike for competition. Imagine whats going thru the minds of the kids when their parents/teachers are screaming at them. I feel that a parent or coach should be able to conduct themselves without making the child feel like a piece of trash.

Anyway, of course we will be able to have some fun training and learn from each other....some of my best friends don't agree with a thing I say just ask my wife.

Sounds good.:ultracool

 

[MJS]

JMS
Thanks for the video's. Especially the young lady doing her form. I am not familiar with the form that she is doing but I see what each technique is designed for >> I see the fight<<< if that makes any since to ya. The young man in the op I did not.
If each of these two were in street cloths in a park preforming, one I would see a fight the other ????

Glad you liked them. That was the reason I posted them..to show that kids who're testing for a Jr. BB, can still put in 150% effort and show some power, stances, etc. While I don't know GM Kingi personally, I've read enough about him to get the impression that he doesn't hand out rank. When you get a promotion, you've earned that belt, no matter what the rank, with hard work and lots of sweat.

 

[MJS]

To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again. JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.

Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.

So the question is: what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB? What do you base your judgement on?

I'll post my reply later on.

 

[Steve]

Thank you both for your replies. I'll try to touch on areas of each of your posts. The babysitting comment that I made earlier...IMHO, I feel that a parent should be supportive of any activity that their child is doing. I also don't feel that a child should be forced into taking lessons, if its something they really don't want to do, but instead something that the parent wants. Kids are going to pick up on that. I say this because I've seen it. Kids would come and go, and I'd have to wonder if they even had a parent, because I never saw them. And its these same people, who would complain when it came time to a stripe or promotion, that their child was falling behind. Hmm...well, ya think maybe you should show up from time to time, so the inst. can talk with you?

Material for that age was usually half of what was required for older kids. As Tez said, I too would make alot of the learning, into a 'game' so it would appear more fun to the kids.

As I said, I'm not opposed to the use of the Jr. BB. However, seeing that this is one step so to speak below the real deal, I'd think that the child who is wearing it would have a) solid stances, b) focus and intensity, c) power in their punches and kicks. IMO, going thru a kata, its a pre-set series of moves, so basically, its as if you're going thru an imaginary fight. So if thats the case, one would think that a, b, and c would be included in that.

I agree completely. The 7 to 14 year old kids' class is great fun to watch and the parents almost always stick around. On Wednesdays, when I don't have something else going on, I'll suit up in time to do some sparring with the kids. A lot of guys do the same, particularly on days when the kids are all different sizes. It's good for the bigger kids to spar with someone on whom they can't just muscle around or sit on and stall.

I've found that it's great fun to spar with the little guys, rolling around and working with them on technique. I've also found that it's a great way to pad my record. I can totally tap those 9 year olds out!

 

[Doc]

To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again. JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.



So the question is: what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB? What do you base your judgement on?

I'll post my reply later on.

I have no standard for a jbb. The requirements are cast in stone, for everyone. Anyone of the age of a jr. who could meet my standards would have to have the intellectual capacity of someone much older, and more years of experience than their limited time on earth could provide.

 

[KempoGuy06]

To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again. JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.

Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.

So the question is: what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB? What do you base your judgement on?

I'll post my reply later on.

thats a very good question an one I was pondering over during my workout 2 days ago. I stayed at the dojo to watch the advanced kids class. I saw, to my amazement some of the kids displaying not only great skill, but a great understanding of what they were doing.

For example one of the blue belts or blue w/green stripe was asked to perform a certain kempo/combo by our instructor, then he was asked to alter it if the attacker where to come at a different angle or with a left hook as a opposed to a straight punch. the kid then executed the technique again.

That is the kids of knowledge and understanding i think should be required. That is very advanced for a 12 year old in opinion. While I did see that which is most positive, I also saw a lack of power and enthusiasm when doing most of the material. Now this may be different when testing and knowing my instructor and his expectations Im sure it is.

So to answer MJS's question, i would say that knowledge along these lines to not only use their material in context but to be able to adapt it accordingly to any situation that should arise, within limits of course. Also when test for said rank they obviously need to show their material with enthusiasm and power as if they were performing them to fight for their life.

B

 

[GBlues]

If I as an adult got to a martial arts school, doesn't matter what style. I expect that the instructor there is going to teach me that style. So just as an example I go to Johnny's Kenpo Karate school. I expect to learn Kenpo not Taekwondo, or a watered down version of Kenpo. I expect to learn Kenpo. I'm paying for it, I should learn that. Now I say this because the same is true with little Johnny. If he wants to be there, and I mean wants to be there, and mom and dad are paying for it, he should be learning Kenpo, not a watered down, Jr.'s only Kenpo. There is absolutely no reason for why you can not hold a child to the same standards as an adult, in this regard. To teach something that is not complete is a disservice not only to yourself, your students parents, but more importantly to your young student. Where I grew up that kid in the first video would have got stomped on the play ground, I know. That is a disservice to the child. He is not being taught his chosen style. To have a separate kids only style is a disservice to your younger students in my opinion, and is disrespectful not only to them but to there parents. It's basically saying, "Look your too young to be here, and too stupid to handle real karate. So we'll teach you this instead, until your old enough to handle the real karate." That's b.s. to me.

Look at Ernie Reyes Jr. By the time he was ten he was competing in adult competitions as a black belt. He couldn't handle real Taekwondo? THe adult material? COme on. Younger students that want to train, will put forth the effort. Those that don't won't. It's simple. If mom and dad don't like that Johnny is still a white or yellow belt, they need to reconsider why there child is going. Are they making him go, even though he'd rather be at home playing video games? Or does he want to go? If they are angry that he's not advancing, the answer is simple, " Martial arts is a very serious study. All of our students regardless of age are held to the same standards. If he isn't at the standard for yellow or orange belt he won't test. If chooses to anyways and he isn't up to par, he won't pass. Little Davy over there showed he is at the standard I hold everyone too, therefore he passes. Furthermore to give your son something that he has not earned is a disservice to him and the other students. I will not disrespect my students any of them including Johnny by dumbing down the material. He is capable of this, and with practice he could be where Davy is, but he chooses not too, and it is evident." It's that simple. Mom and dad can argue all they want, but the bottom line is they know Johnny isn't practicing, and he aint at the same level as the other students.

To take this one step further if you hold all of your students to the same standards. Maybe Davy will be a jr. bb by the time he's ten looking like an adult bb. When he turns 18 he isn't testing for his 1st dan, he maybe testing for his 4 or 5th perhaps by 18. Cause he put the time in, learned the morals, the ethics, etc...and he learned the adult material from the beginning. Not some watered down children are stupid martial arts. Maybe you'd have fewer children in your classroom. But the ones that you'd have would be really good, and they may move on to other martial arts and bring what they learn there back, and share it with you, and you can learn from the student. Just a few thoughts from a guy who doesn't own or run a school. Take it for what you will.:asian:

 

[Steve]

If I as an adult got to a martial arts school, doesn't matter what style. I expect that the instructor there is going to teach me that style. So just as an example I go to Johnny's Kenpo Karate school. I expect to learn Kenpo not Taekwondo, or a watered down version of Kenpo. I expect to learn Kenpo. I'm paying for it, I should learn that. Now I say this because the same is true with little Johnny. If he wants to be there, and I mean wants to be there, and mom and dad are paying for it, he should be learning Kenpo, not a watered down, Jr.'s only Kenpo. There is absolutely no reason for why you can not hold a child to the same standards as an adult, in this regard. To teach something that is not complete is a disservice not only to yourself, your students parents, but more importantly to your young student. Where I grew up that kid in the first video would have got stomped on the play ground, I know. That is a disservice to the child. He is not being taught his chosen style. To have a separate kids only style is a disservice to your younger students in my opinion, and is disrespectful not only to them but to there parents. It's basically saying, "Look your too young to be here, and too stupid to handle real karate. So we'll teach you this instead, until your old enough to handle the real karate." That's b.s. to me.

Look at Ernie Reyes Jr. By the time he was ten he was competing in adult competitions as a black belt. He couldn't handle real Taekwondo? THe adult material? COme on. Younger students that want to train, will put forth the effort. Those that don't won't. It's simple. If mom and dad don't like that Johnny is still a white or yellow belt, they need to reconsider why there child is going. Are they making him go, even though he'd rather be at home playing video games? Or does he want to go? If they are angry that he's not advancing, the answer is simple, " Martial arts is a very serious study. All of our students regardless of age are held to the same standards. If he isn't at the standard for yellow or orange belt he won't test. If chooses to anyways and he isn't up to par, he won't pass. Little Davy over there showed he is at the standard I hold everyone too, therefore he passes. Furthermore to give your son something that he has not earned is a disservice to him and the other students. I will not disrespect my students any of them including Johnny by dumbing down the material. He is capable of this, and with practice he could be where Davy is, but he chooses not too, and it is evident." It's that simple. Mom and dad can argue all they want, but the bottom line is they know Johnny isn't practicing, and he aint at the same level as the other students.

To take this one step further if you hold all of your students to the same standards. Maybe Davy will be a jr. bb by the time he's ten looking like an adult bb. When he turns 18 he isn't testing for his 1st dan, he maybe testing for his 4 or 5th perhaps by 18. Cause he put the time in, learned the morals, the ethics, etc...and he learned the adult material from the beginning. Not some watered down children are stupid martial arts. Maybe you'd have fewer children in your classroom. But the ones that you'd have would be really good, and they may move on to other martial arts and bring what they learn there back, and share it with you, and you can learn from the student. Just a few thoughts from a guy who doesn't own or run a school. Take it for what you will.:asian:

I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues. That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football. If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play. We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals. Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.

As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball. His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level. So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids. He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12. He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength. He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.

I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals. I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point. The program needs to be age appropriate.

While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning. Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11. What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically. That's really it.