Joint Locks

Jared Traveler

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Historically joint locks that restrain someone where reportedly in demand for body guards of nobles and royalty. Where an important guest, might suddenly needed to be restrained, but not damaged.

As a police officer I have had multiple, multiple opportunities to take someone down and restrain someone with joint locks. When they work and it's an appropriate use of force, they are great. They have their place.
 

Holmejr

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In Eskrido de Alcuizar we have two sections, the Arnis (stick, blade) and combat judo. In Combat judo, there are a many locks, throws, breaks, counters and counters for the counters. Like most self defense, the element of surprise plays a big role. Many of these techniques produce great pain which leads to a quick submission.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
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Buena Park, CA
 
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Buka

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When they work, cool. When they don't, especially because they're difficult to apply when someone is going nuts.....they aren't worth squat.
 

isshinryuronin

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When they work, cool. When they don't, especially because they're difficult to apply when someone is going nuts.....they aren't worth squat.
They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person. That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain. I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.

I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent. And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same. This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method: Too many links in the chain required. KISS. (This does not apply to a qin-na master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)

IMO, eight to ten basic practical joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.
 

drop bear

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They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person. That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain. I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.

I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent. And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same. This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method: Too many links in the chain required. KISS. (This does not apply to a qin-na master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)

IMO, eight to ten basic practical joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.

Generally the set up is incredibly bad. Which turns them from low percentage to unrealistic.
 

Flying Crane

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IMO, eight to ten basic practical joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.
I have some familiarity with a number of fundamental joint locks, but would certainly never claim an exceptional level of knowledge on the topic. A number of years ago I read two or three books written by Yang, Jwing Ming on the topics of quin-na in Shaolin and taiji. The books were heavy on photos, showing step-by-step how the lock is set up and applied. These books together contained probably multiple dozen different locks, each with a unique name.

I took the time to look closely at the photos to try and get a real concept in my head of what was being done. My conclusion was that all these dozens of different locking techniques were really just variations on maybe a dozen or so locks that could be legitimately called different. The approach and set-up were different, sometimes more significantly so than other times, but the application and setting of the lock itself was often largely the same, perhaps with what I would consider minor variations.

The variation in the approach and setup leading into the lock is worthwhile because it shows how a smaller curriculum of material can be widely applied. But it was eye-opening to realize there really arent so many different locks as we might be lead to believe.
 

drop bear

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The biggest issue you have is that there is almost always something better. So knowing when to hit wrist locks (and when to abandon them for something else) can be kind of tricky.

But people do silly things with their wrists while grappling. And people flare their elbows to escape wrist locks. So you can use them as a grip fighting system.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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IMO, eight to ten basic practical joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.
You may need a bit more than that.

1. Finger lock - fingers bend, finger split, ...
2. wrist lock - small wrist lock, larger wrist lock, chicken wing, palm flip, hand shake lock, ...
3. elbow lock - ...
4. shoulder lock - ...
5. head lock - ...
6. spin lock - ...
7. leg lock - ...

You also need counter skill too.
 

Gerry Seymour

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They are good for temporary control or disablement without having to KO a person. That said, a good strike or two before setting it is helpful to immobilize the attacker by way of distraction or pain. I agree that it's almost impossible to set a lock on a flailing opponent otherwise.

I have seen some fancy locks that work (when eventually set) but seem unrealistic against a resisting opponent. And also seen some kata bunkai interpretations involving same. This seems to me to be an interesting theoretical mental exercise, not part of a true fighting method: Too many links in the chain required. KISS. (This does not apply to a qin-na master who can lock three or four joints all at once and bend you into a pretzel.)

IMO, eight to ten basic practical joint locks are more than enough for the general martial artist to know in order to help handle a self-defense situation when called for.
I think some of the complexity is what I consider a misunderstanding of the forms (in grappling arts). Many of the grappling forms Ive been exposed to include separate entry, counter, and control principles (and even techniques) that can be applied in multiple situations and with other techniques besides the specific lock in the form. Failing to recognize that leads instructors to teach the form as a single technique that should be repeated nearly that way in a dynamic situation. Sometimes it can be, but that misses the variety of applications actually covered.
 

isshinryuronin

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I think some of the complexity is what I consider a misunderstanding of the forms (in grappling arts). Many of the grappling forms Ive been exposed to include separate entry, counter, and control principles (and even techniques) that can be applied in multiple situations and with other techniques besides the specific lock in the form. Failing to recognize that leads instructors to teach the form as a single technique that should be repeated nearly that way in a dynamic situation. Sometimes it can be, but that misses the variety of applications actually covered.
Don't know any grappling forms, but I agree that most traditional forms are designed to be adaptable to situational variations. My problem is with those who get carried away and extend/interpret the technique to excessive complexity which deviates from what the form is intended to teach, as well as unwieldly for real life.
 

Jared Traveler

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This is some of my practical experience regarding joint locks in confrontations. I have had mixed success using joint locks. Primarily I used a straight armlock to place people face down and keep them their until I was able to handcuff them. It worked dozens of times.

I have tried a few other wristlocks against people resisting arrest, but don't remember them working. I actually have a black belt in Hapkido from days gone by, so I do know how to apply these locks to a degree.

What worked for me, when the initial lock failed, was to not double down on wrist locks. In other words, if one wrist lock failed, I didn't try and transition to a different wrist lock. Instead I would go from wrist lock to judo throw.

I also have a black belt in Judo. Going from a low percentage teachique like a wristlock, to a high percentage judo (attacking his center of mass vs an appendage) worked very well.

It allowed me to try joint locks with a solid more reliable backup technique.
 

Buka

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This is some of my practical experience regarding joint locks in confrontations. I have had mixed success using joint locks. Primarily I used a straight armlock to place people face down and keep them their until I was able to handcuff them. It worked dozens of times.

I have tried a few other wristlocks against people resisting arrest, but don't remember them working. I actually have a black belt in Hapkido from days gone by, so I do know how to apply these locks to a degree.

What worked for me, when the initial lock failed, was to not double down on wrist locks. In other words, if one wrist lock failed, I didn't try and transition to a different wrist lock. Instead I would go from wrist lock to judo throw.

I also have a black belt in Judo. Going from a low percentage teachique like a wristlock, to a high percentage judo (attacking his center of mass vs an appendage) worked very well.

It allowed me to try joint locks with a solid more reliable backup technique.
I'm guessing that straight armlock is what we call an "arm drag." That's the one I've had the most success with, too. :)
 

Jared Traveler

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I'm guessing that straight armlock is what we call an "arm drag." That's the one I've had the most success with, too. :)
Maybe, but to me an arm drag is a wrestling technique to get behind someone. I think officially in the PPCT system it's called a straight armbar takedown.
 

Buka

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Maybe, but to me an arm drag is a wrestling technique to get behind someone. I think officially in the PPCT system it's called a straight armbar takedown.
I taught PPCT for many years, and although I've used a straight armbar takedown on several occasions, that's not the one I meant. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube when I get the time, it's gotta be there somewhere.

The problem is probably with American Karate, we don't really care too much about the names of things. (Our bad.)
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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I taught PPCT for many years, and although I've used a straight armor takedown on several occasions, that's not the one I meant.
I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?
 

Buka

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I want to see this straight armor takedown. Question: Do I have to buy the armor in advance, or is it done with the assumption the attacker is wearing said armor?
Typo corrected to armbar. (which I believe is a drinking establishment that only big armed guys can go to.)
 
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