Joint Locks

Eric Daniel

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Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?
 

mantis

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Eric Daniel said:
Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?
sounds like u've never been in a joint lock!
my friend, there was nothing i can do about it when i was in join locks.
i mean the guy, who is my teacher too, would walk and drag me with him anywhere, and he was just toss me on the ground, or take me from a painful lock to another!
in chin'na i was taught to lock, throw on the ground or hit, then run away. more for self-defense
 

shesulsa

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Eric Daniel said:
Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?
Joint locks are used for all of the above and there are always counters. Part of the training for joint locks is to know what to do when someone resists or tries to counter.

BTW - what style do you train?
 

Navarre

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errr, yeah...let someone who knows how to properly lock apply a joint lock to you. If it's locked, there's not much room in your pain-wracked mind for struggle.

The best way to counter is to have practiced to the point that you "flow", feeling the lock coming and continuing in natural motion with it until you float into a counter or out of it. I've seen good artists flow through a dozen locks, one melding right into the next counter, before one of them finally gets the lock cinched.

Once locked in, it's really hard to get out no matter how tough you are. Many locks rely on the pain reaction to incapacitate an opponent.

Therefore, one must be careful of opponents who are high or inebriated because they don't have the same pain reaction. Of course, drunk or not, a broken arm kinda slows you down.

Locks are generally used to control the situation to prevent extreme harm. For that reason I prefer locks in general to kicking the crap out of someone. In extreme situations, it is easy to go straight for the sprain or break. It's all a matter of cinching tightly, feeling the opponent's motion, having the right angle, and knowing your control.

I trained for over 10 years in karate without ever learning real locks. Now, after 22 years of karate and 10 years of ju-jitsu, I consider joint locks one of the most effective weapons in my physical arsenal.

Different arts approach locks a bit differently. Absorb, evaluate, and apply what works for you.
 

mantis

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Navarre said:
errr, yeah...let someone who knows how to properly lock apply a joint lock to you. If it's locked, there's not much room in your pain-wracked mind for struggle.

The best way to counter is to have practiced to the point that you "flow", feeling the lock coming and continuing in natural motion with it until you float into a counter or out of it. I've seen good artists flow through a dozen locks, one melding right into the next counter, before one of them finally gets the lock cinched.

Once locked in, it's really hard to get out no matter how tough you are. Many locks rely on the pain reaction to incapacitate an opponent.

Therefore, one must be careful of opponents who are high or inebriated because they don't have the same pain reaction. Of course, drunk or not, a broken arm kinda slows you down.

Locks are generally used to control the situation to prevent extreme harm. For that reason I prefer locks in general to kicking the crap out of someone. In extreme situations, it is easy to go straight for the sprain or break. It's all a matter of cinching tightly, feeling the opponent's motion, having the right angle, and knowing your control.

I trained for over 10 years in karate without ever learning real locks. Now, after 22 years of karate and 10 years of ju-jitsu, I consider joint locks one of the most effective weapons in my physical arsenal.

Different arts approach locks a bit differently. Absorb, evaluate, and apply what works for you.
You study Karate and JJ, right?
Both of these two arts are hard and external, right?
do they emphasize any circular motion?
coz right before you get locked you have a chance of preventing the lock if you can know how to twist your arm out of it, right?
also, in JJ if you are locked you can unlock yourself and lock the oponent back. is there any end to this?
like what's your goal? run a way? kill the guy? lock him?
 

Navarre

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Yes, I study both karate and ju-jitsu. My training is interesting.

Karate is typically thought of as a hard art yet my training was as spiritual as it was physical. We worked a lot on meditation, focusing ki, self-awareness, as well as blocks and strikes.

My ju-jitsu training uses very flowing techniques but wasn't backed by much spiritual training at all. My instructor emphasized physical flow over anything else.

My karate style worked a whole lot on angles, positioning oneself at an angle that avoided the opponent's strike while enabling our own. Our strikes also worked smoothly, always in combination. But the strikes themselves were generally directly toward the target.

My ju-jitsu style is full of circular motion. Again, we worked constantly on what we simply called "flow", that ability to feel a person's movement, become one with it, flow through their attack, and lock into our own whenever the opportunity presented.

Your question about reversing or flowing out of a lock was addressed in the second paragraph of my original post as well as above. Yes, as long as you yourself aren't locked, you can flow endlessly. Ultimately where you end up is dictated by where the motion goes. The fight isn't over until someone is incapacitated.

I have no "goal", to answer your last set of questions. To mentally place a goal upon myself is to constrict my mind and body because I can then only do what appears to further my goal. If I have any set of goals it is protect the innocent or helpless, preserve myself, and end the conflict (preferably without permanent harm).

When I studied only karate I reacted instinctively but it was to avoid, block, strike, or counter-strike. Now, I instinctively become one with the person's own motion (to the limits of my ability).

The "goal" is to become him and allow my training to induce whatever is available whenever it happens, but to induce that event painfully and instantly. My summary of my jujitsu technique is "Flow like water; Strike like fire".
 

arnisador

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I use joint locks transitionally--I like to start the lock to get the off-balancing I need, then go to a strike. I often only use the first half of the lock if it gets them moving the way I want them to go. Eh, easier to demonstrate than to describe!
 

bignick

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Locks also lead quite easily into limb destruction. Pain compliance is one way to use joint techniques, removing the ability to use the joint without serious constructive surgery is another. Prime example, just about any one with any competence in the lock kote gaeshi would most likely be able to apply it faster than anybody, even someone experienced with the technique would be able to roll out or block the lock. Remember, in arts like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc...people use the roll as an escape from the lock and a way to avoid damage. Someone that doesn't know it's coming or is unprepared to take the fall will get to hear the pleasant sounding ,snap of ligaments, etc being torn. And by the way, from personal experience...it's a pretty disgusting noise, even when you're not the one getting hurt...
 

bignick

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Also, more real life stories, my friend Mitch, a black belt in jujutsu was traveling to England a few years ago. When he tried to board the plane they confiscated his kubotan because it's a weapon, and we've all heard how bad the English are about that. Well, needless to say he got lost in the middle of the night on the way to his friends place from the bar. Two guys tried to jump him and steal his wallet. One had a knife. He said he can't really remember clearly what happened, but he does know the one with the knife learned all about the effectiveness of joint locks, again, kote gaeshi in particular.

This is not to say joint locks are the end all technique...they are not. Just like anything else the effectiveness will vary by person, I know a guy that can lay his palms on both hands flat onto his forearms...picture that....then try it....then shiver a little bit... and sometimes you'll need to setup with a distraction like a strike or, like Arnisador said use a lock as a distraction for a strike.
 

mantis

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Navarre said:
I have no "goal", to answer your last set of questions. To mentally place a goal upon myself is to constrict my mind and body because I can then only do what appears to further my goal. If I have any set of goals it is protect the innocent or helpless, preserve myself, and end the conflict (preferably without permanent harm).

When I studied only karate I reacted instinctively but it was to avoid, block, strike, or counter-strike. Now, I instinctively become one with the person's own motion (to the limits of my ability).

The "goal" is to become him and allow my training to induce whatever is available whenever it happens, but to induce that event painfully and instantly. My summary of my jujitsu technique is "Flow like water; Strike like fire".
Thank you sir for your patience with me
Actually I was asking what is your goal as a karate fighter, or JJ artist. For example in mantis kung fu, or Chin'na our goal is to get out of a serious situation asap and run away, other arts maybe require the fighter to disable the oponent and so on. So let's say you are attacked when do you stop fighting? I am sorry I didnt make myself clear.
I think karate is believed to be a hard art is because it confronts force with force. for example in mantis kung fu (AGAIN!!) if i am hit i yield and absorb your energy (the concept of YIN = soft) then i reverse your energy back at you (YANG = hard).
 

Navarre

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Yes, despite all the great techniques in karate, I agree that it is a "hard" art. Sometimes that works as well or better than a soft one but, like Arnisador, I often allow them to flow together. After a while it becomes harder to separate visually because of the flow, which is why I'm glad I work on integrating the two.

As for my goal if I'm in a fight; when do I stop? Like anyone, I stop when the conflict is ended. I know that sounds smug to say but that's really all there is to it.

My goal is not to put ppl in locks any more than it is to kick them. I simply allow myself to go on instinct and training, executing whatever is open. In general though, I use karate to close the gap, doing damage on the way in. I then use ju-jitsu to take advantage of the opening created by my strikes.

When I started ju-jitsu I found my karate training allowed me to "get the drop" on most fellow students. This was great. But, in real life I'd better stop them before they get a hold of me because Heaven help me once they made a grapple.

So, we interchanged concepts. I showed them how to protect themselves better while closing the gap and doing damage on the way in. They showed me what to do when the fight inevitably ended up in a clinch.

At this point, I couldn't imagine working on just one of these arts. In a real fight, I'll use the best available technique to achieve my three goals (protect others, protect myself, stop the fight).
 

Korppi76

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Hi,
I would say that first in aikido you learn to do joint locks that only hurt.
Then you learn to make locks that moves uke.
And then you learn how to get away from them in early of lock (when its not fully locked... how you say that).
Usually you cant get away from successfully made lock, you can resist it are do something else but the time window for that is very small.

And when comparing Aikido lock to those I learned in Karate, Ju-jutsu and Judo I would say that in aikido locks are usually made more, how to say this... more through to uke than for example in Karate or Ju-jutsu. This is because in aikido technique is usually centered to that lock and in Karate or Ju-jutsu it is part of combination. Like arnisador said.

And then there are ending locks that are basicly similar in idea in all those arts I have trained. Uke stays down or under control.
 
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Eric Daniel

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mantis said:
sounds like u've never been in a joint lock!
my friend, there was nothing i can do about it when i was in join locks.
i mean the guy, who is my teacher too, would walk and drag me with him anywhere, and he was just toss me on the ground, or take me from a painful lock to another!
in chin'na i was taught to lock, throw on the ground or hit, then run away. more for self-defense
Oh, I have been in joint locks before and my instructor can and does do the same thing to me as your sensei did to you (walk and drag around, go from one lock to the other and toss me to the ground.) I was just reading another forum on locks and I took my interpatation of what was being asked there and put on this forum to see what the reaction to you guys on this forum would be because the other forum has much different reactions to joint lock discussion than you guys do! Just in case you were wondering the web address to the other forum is
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums and it is in the world Modern Arnis Coalation section under the topic how to escape from locks.
 
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Eric Daniel

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arnisador said:
I use joint locks transitionally--I like to start the lock to get the off-balancing I need, then go to a strike. I often only use the first half of the lock if it gets them moving the way I want them to go. Eh, easier to demonstrate than to describe!
My sensei likes to do the same thing.
 
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Eric Daniel

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shesulsa said:
Joint locks are used for all of the above and there are always counters. Part of the training for joint locks is to know what to do when someone resists or tries to counter.

BTW - what style do you train?
I train in a martial art with different styles in one organization. As for joint locks it is Takeshin Aiki- Ju- Jutsu.
 

Yari

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Eric Daniel said:
Why do Martial Artist use joint locks? I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? Restraining an opponent, Controling an opponent, submission? What if someone resists the joint lock? (I would hit them if they resist). how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks?

Why do MA use joint locks? To lock/redirect, either intermidiate or totaly.

I know there are a few joint locks in aikido like nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and others. What are they used for? To lock,/redirect either intermidiate or totaly.

What if someone resists the joint lock? Do something else.

how many of you have studied or know how to get out of these locks? 42% :ultracool

/Yari
 

sallehi

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If you are looking for a list of kansetsu waza techniques or in other words judo joint locking techniques and you want to learn them well, this article is the best choice for you.
 
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