The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

drop bear

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I thought that little twist that they do was to get off center-line so they don't get smashed in the face. So with that assumption I thought the trapping was done by avoiding your opponent's center-line. When I trap I don't like to trap head on. I prefer taking some kind of angle which reduces the chance that I'll get smashed in the face for standing directly in front of my sparring partner. For me taking that angle isn't so much about avoiding the first punch as it is to make it difficult for my opponent to throw the second punch. So if you punch with a right jab, then I want to move to the left of your jab. That way your right punching arm is in between your left punch and my face. By me being off my opponent's center line, I will have the option to strike because I'm facing my opponent, but my opponent has to reposition so he can use his left arm.

I'm not sure if that painted a clear picture., but anyway.. that's what I thought that that twist was for., to move the body off the opponents center line. Which would make it easier to trap than standing in front eating a 1 - 2 jab combo. or a hook.

You would think you would see it in chi sou


The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.

Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.
 
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JowGaWolf

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@drop bear I don't like this twisting that he does at 2:56 because he stays on my center-line for jabs and crosses. His feet move but his head and body stays in the same place. I've seen other WC practitioners do the same technique but, they actually move off the center line, which make more sense to me, then staying in one place.

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You would think you would see it in chi sou


The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.

Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.

This is how I think of Chi Sau and it's probably because I took Tai Chi. The concept of sticking with and controlling the opponent's hand and arms. And sensing what your opponent may do based on how he's trying to position his hands. Or it can be used to sense opening of attack.
This is just me and my thinking. If I wanted to train this technique, I would find grappler because that would give me more opportunity to use Chi Sou. I wouldn't try this with a striker unless it was from a clinch, meaning my opponent will try to apply a clinch and I would try to keep it from happening. Chi Sou to me is like "controlling hand" and the only real way to use it to have contact and "stickiness" when is really difficult to near impossible to do hat the end of sometimes punch. If were to try it against a puncher I would have to first figure out how to get within clinch range and then how to keep my opponent there. That's just my thinking based on the numerous punches I've taken in the past.
 

JowGaWolf

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You would think you would see it in chi sou


The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.

Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.
Another thing about Chi Sou. If I had to practice it with another WC student, then all of that practice would be training of concept. I would actually have to Practice against a non-WC student in order to practice the Application of it. A non WC student isn't going to be tempted to get into formal Wing Chun stances and Chi Sou positioning. Again this just my personal thoughts on this, because that how I train my Jow Ga. Jow Ga vs Jow Ga = concept training. Jow Ga vs something else = application training.

This is what I enjoyed about my old sparring partners. They rarely used Jow Ga techniques. They preferred boxing and haymakers. So as long as they were doing that I was getting good application training.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Another thing about Chi Sou. If I had to practice it with another WC student,
If a WC guy uses sticky hand against a SC guy, the process will be different. The "separate hands" will be used to separate the WC guy's arms away from his head. A clinch will be then established.

Which approach is better? The answer may depend on whether you can truly knock your opponent down in the sticky hand range or not.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Foot movement mostly. Lomenchenko pulls that off because he is super good at keeping opponents on his centerline while staying off of theirs. If you are on opponents centerline, trapping hands doesn't work.
Thanks. That's good food for thought. I need to look at how I'm trapping (and how I teach it) to see if I'm focusing enough on that point.
 

Martial D

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Thanks. That's good food for thought. I need to look at how I'm trapping (and how I teach it) to see if I'm focusing enough on that point.
Ya.

It might be different in other arts but with the WC I learned the objective was always to pin one arm with the other arm. This is substantially easier to do if he is angled off you.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It might be different in other arts but with the WC I learned the objective was always to pin one arm with the other arm. This is substantially easier to do if he is angled off you.
When you pin your opponent's arm,. do you pin on his forearm. elbow joint, or upper arm? Also do you pin with your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward yourself, or facing toward your opponent?
 

Martial D

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When you pin your opponent's arm,. do you pin on his forearm. elbow joint, or upper arm? Also do you pin with your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward yourself, or facing toward your opponent?
We used the palm side of the outside of the hand (knife edge). We kept the thumbs tucked . In fact, that was true of all hand techniques. Even our lop sau was a finger/palm grab.

The ideal trap in that WC was on the elbow, because it prevents rotating the arm free on the elbow axis.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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We used the palm side of the outside of the hand (knife edge). We kept the thumbs tucked . In fact, that was true of all hand techniques. Even our lop sau was a finger/palm grab.

The ideal trap in that WC was on the elbow, because it prevents rotating the arm free on the elbow axis.
The reason that I ask you how to pin your opponent's forearm against his back arm, because when you do that, if you can pull your opponent's right arm to your right (his left), you can scoop his right leg or outer hook his left leg and take him down. The opportunity is there.

IMO, to pin your opponent's leading arm against his back arm is a very important strategy in CMA. At that moment, your opponent has no free arms and you still have 1 free arm. You can punch your opponent to death if you want to.

Not sure if Aikido uses this strategy.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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The reason that I ask you how to pin your opponent's forearm against his back arm, because when you do that, if you can pull your opponent's right arm to your right (his left), you can scoop his right leg or outer hook his left leg and take him down. The opportunity is there.

IMO, to pin your opponent's leading arm against his back arm is a very important strategy in CMA. At that moment, your opponent has no free arms and you still have 1 free arm. You can punch your opponent to death if you want to.

Not sure if Aikido uses this strategy.
I've never seen that arm pinning in Aikido (though I've incorporated it a bit). Aikido as I've seen it depends more in hiding behind the arm ("outside" the front arm) with forced weight shifts to slow a counter-pivot, for the same purpose.
 
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