Hanzou
Grandmaster
How is it nonsense if Atemi is integral to Aikido practice, yet many Judoka never learn, or use Judo atemi?
Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu
- Thread starter TSDTexan
- Start date
How is it nonsense if Atemi is integral to Aikido practice, yet many Judoka never learn, or use Judo atemi?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Your lack of an answer programs point.
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Hanzou, if you use a little logic you will understand why Judo has striking and why it is just as integral to Judo as atemi is to aikido.
Fact 1. Judo has strikes introduced at a high level after the basics should be well established within the Judoka.
Fact 2. Dr Kano went to Okinawa to meet with Motobu Choki and learn aspects of striking from him.
Also, Dr Kano had masters like Gitchin Funakoshi actually come and teach the striking to the Kodakan Yudansha.
Fact 3. At this point, Tou-Te or Karate was not yet a competitive sport but a self defense discipline.
Fact 4. Striking is prohibited under the sport rulesets of Judo.
Deduction analysis dictates Atemi serve the self defense application of Judo. Primarly as attack by combination and attack by misdirection.
In a sport match, you already know that your competitors are Judoka, and you both are agreeing to start a grappling fight.
In a street application of Judo, you don't know if they are a martial artist, or an undisciplined fighter.
You know they won't want to let you judo throw them
Odds are against you just walking up and throwing them.
You have range issues to deal with. You have to enter his space and your primary skill set is grappling based attacks.
You will be expected to strike in a fight, however most people in a fight do not expect a judo throw.
If you start with a judo throw you will get shut down even if they don't understand the attack.
However a fast blow to the solar plexus.... and you have a human tackling dummy.
My judo coach was a wing chun man.
Chain punching makes a guy wanna tackle you.
Trying to tackle a judoka who really wants you to tackle him is a one way ticket to hurtsville population 1.
(Goading your attacker into attacking you in such a way that he volunteers to sacrifice posture and structure by overcommitted attack. Sounds like something out of a jujutsu playbook.)
He loved WC for its excellent trapping.
He said WC or JKD Trapping is ideal for Judoka in a No Gi wearing opponent self defense situation.
Which brings us back to your question... most Judoka are sportsmen, of low rank, trained by sport judo coachesn who never delved into Judo SD.
The Cycle perpetuates...
Therefore in many Judo Halls... atemi is ignored, misapplied and misunderstood. Many people never got the memo.
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Watch some high level judo matches.
Look for strikes.Especially during entry, or when the contestants are looking for grips.
While you're at it, watch for contesting in the guard.....
When I was a kid, knife hand strikes to the opponent's forearm were still permitted in randori....now, it's what you've been trained to get away with, but hey............
....just sayin'
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Elder...Please correct me here if any of what I am about to say here is wrong...
A lot of MMA crowd and a number of BJJ guys like Joe Rogan crap on Aikido over non resistance training... but
Most of them are are unaware of the fact that Judo itself has a spectrum of soft to hard resistance training.
There is a compliant style of Judo randori, known as Yakusoku Geiko (prearranged practice), in which neither participant offers resistance to their partner's attempts to throw.
There is also Sute Geiko (throw-away practice), in which a sempai (corect spelling is with an N, but most westerners hear an M sound) judoka allows himself to be thrown by his kōhai partner.
While the typical sempai/ kōhai relationship is between a Dan and a Kyu just like upperclassmen and lower classmen... in Sute Geiko practice it is pretty informal... there is no lifelong bond established.
It is just an experienced Judoka allowing a less experienced Judoka gain some hands on training with a senior classman's insight.
Then there is the hard style of randori that seeks to emulate the style of sport judo as seen in competition.
There is sometimes an over-emphasis of the competitive aspect which distorts the purpose of the randori from the goal of learning into the goal of winning competition.
This aspect cannot be found in traditional old school Aikido.
However, as I have said before, Shotokan Aikido and the two others previously mentioned are competitive Aikido.
The purpose of Judo randori is not to train a judoka to win in Shiai. And it never was.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There are more judo guys who will beat you up than there are akido guys.
Nothing to prove also me
That just sounds as if Judo guys are more bolshie than Aiki guys, nothing to do with what martial arts they do.
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Dropbear said:
"There are more judo guys who will beat you up than there are akido guys."
How is this point relevant to the discussion?
The number of style exponents (aikido) who are willing to beat someone up vs the number of another style (judo)has no bearing on whether the style is a legitimate martal art or a fantasy martial art.
Joe Rogan was bashing tmas as well as what he calls em fantasy martial arts. There is a tendency to say if you wont come to the ring and compete... your art is probably fake.
Joe Rogan has dumped pretty good on White Crane Fist kung fu...and Tiger Fist.
And yet a Karate and Sanda Multiple Champion found practioners of white crane that surprised him.
Usually he dominated in sparing with Kung Fu guys. These White Crane guys were demonstrating an art with effective fighting capacity and serious power, and were keeping up with his level.
This was out of his own mouth on the MA documentary program Kung Fu Quest when they reasearched the connections between the different okinaiwa karate and white crane traditions.
"There are more judo guys who will beat you up than there are akido guys."
How is this point relevant to the discussion?
The number of style exponents (aikido) who are willing to beat someone up vs the number of another style (judo)has no bearing on whether the style is a legitimate martal art or a fantasy martial art.
Joe Rogan was bashing tmas as well as what he calls em fantasy martial arts. There is a tendency to say if you wont come to the ring and compete... your art is probably fake.
Joe Rogan has dumped pretty good on White Crane Fist kung fu...and Tiger Fist.
And yet a Karate and Sanda Multiple Champion found practioners of white crane that surprised him.
Usually he dominated in sparing with Kung Fu guys. These White Crane guys were demonstrating an art with effective fighting capacity and serious power, and were keeping up with his level.
This was out of his own mouth on the MA documentary program Kung Fu Quest when they reasearched the connections between the different okinaiwa karate and white crane traditions.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well stuff like this doesn't help;
I mean, stuff like that just reinforces the perception.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
They probably are. But it is the difference between a martial arts that will let you try it out and one that won't.
So if judo did nothing but the macarena for training but their student had the respect of other styles because they mix in and spar them. It would have more relevance than another martial art that say uses "science" or something but never goes outside its own comfort zone.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
That is the test . you don't as a martial artist do drills with another martial artist. You spar the guy. And you do that to find out if their style is legitimate.
Because at some point you are going to ask the question. Is this going to work?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Another way to say this is
"If you don't test your skill against someone in the ring or on the mat for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours any more."
Have you ever asked your next door neighbor whether or not he is willing to spar/wrestle with you for 15 rounds if you are willing to pay him?
If you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down
- 15 times in 15 rounds, your "single leg" skill is pretty good.
- 8 times in 15 rounds, your "single leg" skill is average.
- 1 or 2 times in 15 rounds, your "single leg" skill is pretty bad.
The number won't lie to you.
You can replace "single leg" by "hook punch" and replace "take down" by "knock down". But you may have hard time to find any of your next door neighbor who is willing to be your sparring partner. That's the advantage of the "grappling art" over the "striking art".
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Missing the point.
It may not be the case that the art has failed the practitioner.... but that the practioner was still too green or underdeveloped In a valid art. Or using the art in an application outside of intended purpose.
At that point it isnt... is this going to work?
The question is: Am I able to make this work for me?
Its like finding fault in a race car, when the car performed poorly in response to bad driver control. Or trying to bring a nascar racecar to a Baja Off Road Rally... and blaming the car for losing to the all terain trucks.
Also...The purpose of randori is not competitive sparing but it is learning how to do the art. And sparing is a drill but is a live fire one.
And... not every art is designed for the artist to fight another martial artist or even other martial arts. Some arts are meant as a means of self defense from untrained common agressors with little to no skill sets.
If a western boxer loses 100 fights to bjj guys? Does that mean his art is not legitimate?
This is what you imply. Because in testing it fails the boxer.
But put the 100 Bjj guys in a boxing ring and force them to compete under WBF WBA or IBF Boxing rules they will almost certainly lose every fight in the boxing ring.
Does that mean BJJ isnt a legitimate art?
In both cases no.
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Ok. I guess you mised the part where it was mentioned that there is competitive aikido as well as old school aikido that is noncompetitive. .
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
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I wonder how well that turkish wrestler would handle an Aikidoka like Roy Dean or Ari Bolden. Ari is a martial artist with over 25 years of experience.
If Ari responded by limiting himself to just Aikido techniques... I'm willing to bet he could handle the turkish wrestler.
He currently teaches Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Japanese Jujutsu at Fierce Studio in Victoria BC Canada.
His experience as a security professional for nearly two decades gives him a unique perspective on the practicality and applicability of martial arts in real life situations.
In addition to his martial arts and security background, Ari has written two books on night club security and self-defense, and has traveled extensively giving seminars on both subjects. He holds black belts in Japanese Jujutsu and Aikido, and holds purple belts in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (under professor Keith Owen) and 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu (under Eddie Bravo).
Ari also runs www.Submissions101.com , arguably the world's most viewed BJJ video instructional website offering instruction from a variety of instructors and styles.
So Hanzou for every poor example of Aikido you present, I am sure I can find something on the other end of the bell curve to counter.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Probably poorly, since both those guys are Bjj black belts.
My next door neighbour is a Gurkha so the answer is absolutely no, no and no. Ever.
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TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Read the part about limiting himself to Aikido techniques again. And Ari promoted to brown and black in BJJ....?
Well news to me.
Btw... one aikidoka losing to a turkish wrestler doesnt prove your case that a. Aikido isnt a grappling art.
Two it doesnt prove JoeRoganish type criticism of aikido being a fantasy MA
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
I did. It's a pretty dumb argument. Interesting that out of all the high-ranking Aikidoka in the world, you choose two that are black belts in Bjj.
That wasn't my argument. I was simply supporting Drop Bear's statement.
Also I don't think Rogan ever said that Aikido was a fantasy MA.
