I've got lots of issues and need some advice...

[Makalakumu]

I spoke on the phone with the chief instructor at Hikari no Dojo and we had a very interesting discussion. He was very interested in talking to me, but he does have some concerns in trying to train me. Basically, it comes down to this, with all of the experience that I have, he doesn't know if I will really benefit because I'd have to forget everything that I know and attempt to relearn something new. He gave an example, saying that he has a student who took shotokan for four years. Now, ten years later, he STILL has to remind the student that he's not doing Shotokan. There's just too much body memory.

With me having 12 years of experience in TSD and ten years in other arts, it would be VERY difficult for me. He also said something interesting, that I would get more out of teaching then being a student. I can see where that comes from because I grew so much in my practice of karate from my eight years of teaching in Minnesota. With that being said, he still invited me to come and watch a class and talk further about what's going on.

I'm feeling a little frustrated. I really want to get connected with the karate community in Hawaii, but I'm not sure how. I've got such an extensive background, people just aren't interested or they feel that it wouldn't be good for me to start something new. Maybe I should look into TSD again? But then, I'm stuck doing all of those kicks that wreck my back. I really can't advance anymore in TSD because of that. Maybe Shotokan is where I need to be. TSD and Shotokan are almost the exact same art, but Shotokan doesn't do the crazy kicks that are so common in TSD. Also, Shotokan is a little more rigid then TSD. But most Shotokan dojos have no interest or knowledge of kata application, which is something I'm attempting to learn.

What I really want is a group of people that I can train with and really analyze my forms and test things out. I want a group of people who know things that I don't and would be willing to teach those things to me. I want a group of people that will push me, make me sweat, and help me to excel. I love karate and I want to learn more about it, but I don't know if its possible for me to unlearn everything I've already learned. KWIM?

Maybe I should just look at an art that is completely different then TSD. Perhaps Kendo. Perhaps BJJ? Perhaps Arnis? I don't know. I'm interested in Karate and in learning the depth of the art. Maybe I should just continue on my own personal journey and continue to innovate new approaches. I feel that I just need to connect somehow to the greater karate community out here in Hawaii. The traditions are so rich and deep that it would be foolish to not try and connect.

 

[terryl965]

Manu maybe he would be willing to let you start a couple of classes a week at his school. I mean lease the space and also take some lesson from him to add to your background it would be a win win stituation for you and him, if he is willing.

 

[Tez3]

Is there a Wado Ryu place you could try? Wado katas are simliar to TSD but have more in them but where many of the kicks in the TSD are sidekicks in Wado they are front kicks, plus less twisting and shorter stances overall which are better for backs.
I like TSD but admit that I love Wado and miss doing it a lot, it was easy enough to change styles but then I still do teach some of the Wado techniques in with the TSD just as a bit extra.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Manu look into the Filipino Martial Arts all of the older practitioner's seem to be able to make their technique work even when they are at advanced age. The kicking is not high and it is in general a tool based system which you will enjoy as a change.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi John,

I perused the website, and have a couple questions. First, with whom did you speak? Was is Charles C. Goodin? According to the website, he has spent time training in several different arts, with several different teachers as well. I wonder about his unwillingness to consider teaching you, considering his own varied background.

Another thought: you can do TSD without the kicks, or modify the kicks to the point where they don't injure you. I agree, if you are being injured by the way you are throwing kicks, something is seriously wrong and you ought to re-examine what you are doing. Maybe some adjustments, lowering the height, substituting out the ones that are most problematical, etc., and you can continue with your TSD.

Another thought: maybe the karate arts are too similar to your TSD training, but different enough to cause problems. Personally, I would think there ought to be a place for you in the karate community, even if this school elects to not accept you. I think that would simply be their loss. Maybe other schools will be more willing, or not, I dunno. But I do find the notion a bit odd.

maybe the thing to do is, as you suggested, go with something very different. You mentioned something like kendo, is that really something you would be interested in? Not to disparage kendo, but that seems like such a different art that maybe it's not what you are looking for. My understanding is that it is really kind of sport oriented, and being strictly sword, would it satisfy what you need?

I suggest you look into the Chinese arts. There is a lot of variety, and you will learn some methods of generating power that I think are quite different from TSD. I suggest something like Choy Lay Fut, or Hung Gar, or Tibetan White Crane, if these are available. They tend to capitalize on whipping power, and you might find that it really opens your eyes in ways you never expected.

You might consider looking into the roots of Okinawan karate by finding a teacher of Fukien White Crane. It's my understanding that the Okinawan methods had heavy influence from this system. I believe the Okinawan Sanchin Kata is pretty much directly taken from Fukien White Crane. If there is a school teaching this, you might find it to be a wealth of information and even better than training in an Okinawan school.

Good luck!

Michael

 

[hkfuie]

I really want to get connected with the karate community in Hawaii, but I'm not sure how. ..

What I really want is a group of people that I can train with and really analyze my forms and test things out. I want a group of people who know things that I don't and would be willing to teach those things to me. I want a group of people that will push me, make me sweat, and help me to excel. I love karate and I want to learn more about it, but I don't know if its possible for me to unlearn everything I've already learned. KWIM?

I can definitely empathize with you. And I second wanting a group of people to work out with and share ideas and be bodies for bunkai practice/exploration. I think that is a difficulty for lots of people who have been training a while.

Isn't there more than one good school there? If you keep looking, you will find something that is right for you, or meet some people who would be willing to get together to train.

I went to lots of schools and it took a while before I kept hearing the same name again and again...I went and it all fell into place.

I trained in KF at one point and my instructor, while he shook his head when my TKD influence snuck into some of the moves, he always had good humor about it and I did my best to revise it. I will always be TKD first, but I learned alot, as Flying Crane said, about power generation, but even more about using softness in blocking, sticking, redirecting. I think that has translated well into my hard style blocks. I value many things I learned while training there. Plus, when learning techniques in another style, I often get "aha" moments of applications for TKD techniques. It's very exciting, IMO.

Good luck to you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Plus, when learning techniques in another style, I often get "aha" moments of applications for TKD techniques. It's very exciting, IMO.

I have had similar experiences as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

The schools out here are very traditional. Many of the headmasters of major systems have schools here in Honolulu to supplement their operations in Okinawa. I am interested in exploring the roots of karate in an effort to better understand the TSD that I've been taught. Thus, the Shorin Ryu styles of Okinawan karate are of great interest to me. In particular, I'm interested in learning various kata in their unmodified state, before they were changed in order to be introduced to the Okinawan School System.

There is a Shotokan dojo that is right down the street of my house and I have arranged to view their advanced class. Their sensei is a fifth dan in the SKIF with over twenty six years of experience in the art. I will be going to visit the school tomorrow. It's not my ideal, but at least its close to what I've been doing. Plus, I earned a brown belt in Shotokan years ago and I believe that rank my transfer from the JKA.

FC - I spoke with Mr. Goodin. He was very gracious and we had a good conversation on the telephone. One of his other concerns, which I just remembered, is the fact that I was a writer and that I was writing books on karate history and application. He said that as a student of his, I would need permission to publish information that he taught and that I really should consider whether I wanted to be bound under those conditions.

Also, I'm not against starting something new. The Filipino community out here is huge and there is a lot of great FMA out here. I have some experience in Arnis, Pekiti Tersia, and Kali, so I wouldn't be starting from scratch there, however.

As far as the Kendo thing is concerned, I always said that if I was going to do an art where competition played a factor, it would be Kendo. I've always been interested in it and I found a very serious traditional school that is near my home. Check this out. Maeda Sensei is a 7th dan in Kendo and a 4th dan in Iaido. This would be unique and different and I don't think there's anything like it outside of Japan.

I believe there is a Goju-Ryu dojo in Kaneohe, near where I live. That might also be an option, but that would take some time. The process of approaching instructors sometimes can take a while.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is there a Wado Ryu place you could try? Wado katas are simliar to TSD but have more in them but where many of the kicks in the TSD are sidekicks in Wado they are front kicks, plus less twisting and shorter stances overall which are better for backs.

I like TSD but admit that I love Wado and miss doing it a lot, it was easy enough to change styles but then I still do teach some of the Wado techniques in with the TSD just as a bit extra.

Strangely enough, they do not have Wado out here, as far as I have been able to determine. I wish they did because I would love to take either Wado or Shito Ryu!

 

[Flying Crane]

I am interested in exploring the roots of karate in an effort to better understand the TSD that I've been taught. Thus, the Shorin Ryu styles of Okinawan karate are of great interest to me. In particular, I'm interested in learning various kata in their unmodified state, before they were changed in order to be introduced to the Okinawan School System.

this sounds great and I hope you can find it, but seriously, look around a bit and see if you can find Fukien/Fujian/Southern White Crane. You'll find a lot of roots there. How's the CHinese MA community? Is there a Chinatown in Honolulu? Maybe not in the yellowpages or on the web, but they might exist in the basements of buildings in Chinatown. I've discovered some of those here in San Francisco. Gotta look around a bit to find them. If you meet someone in that community, maybe he can lead the way for you.

FC - I spoke with Mr. Goodin. He was very gracious and we had a good conversation on the telephone. One of his other concerns, which I just remembered, is the fact that I was a writer and that I was writing books on karate history and application. He said that as a student of his, I would need permission to publish information that he taught and that I really should consider whether I wanted to be bound under those conditions.

ah, that's a potential issue. I don't have any advice for you on that. Good luck!

As far as the Kendo thing is concerned, I always said that if I was going to do an art where competition played a factor, it would be Kendo. I've always been interested in it and I found a very serious traditional school that is near my home. Check this out. Maeda Sensei is a 7th dan in Kendo and a 4th dan in Iaido. This would be unique and different and I don't think there's anything like it outside of Japan.

fair enough, and I agree it would be very cool. There is probably a bit of an investment in equipment, I imagine.

How're the finances since the relocation?

I believe there is a Goju-Ryu dojo in Kaneohe, near where I live. That might also be an option, but that would take some time. The process of approaching instructors sometimes can take a while.

yes, it can. Be patient, and keep up the search.

 

[Flying Crane]

I imagine you've already found this, but here is a listing of schools of all sorts on Oahu:

http://www.onzuka.com/oahu.html

Lots of things to look at there, might find what you are looking for.

 

[jks9199]

You're looking to get involved in the MA community there; maybe this guy can be your entry, even though he's not interested in teaching you, and that may be his goal in sitting down with you when you observe a class. As others have suggested, he may help you find somewhere to teach, or get the visibility to get some students.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe I'm a little confused but the web site you posted a link to says that:

The Hikari dojo conducts classes in the traditional Okinawan arts of Karate Jutsu (Kishaba Juku Shorin-Ryu) and Yamani-Ryu Bo Jutsu

Additionally, there is this piece:

Our training is kata oriented ... The emphasis is not on the quantity of kata learned but rather on the depth of understanding of each kata. It is important to learn both the body dynamics and the applications (bunkai) of each of the movements in the kata.

Given this, I'm not sure why the topic of Shotokan was brought up. It looks like the dojo is teaching traditional Okinawan arts with an emphasis on bunkai, which is what you said you were interested in learning and researching. So in that sense, I don't see the problem.

That being said, it seems that the instructor you have been talking with may be giving you some subtlye hints that training at that school might not be for you (for whatever reason). You mentioned kendo, that would be an interesting art to persue. Also, you're in Hawaii so you might want to look into training in koryu with Wayne Muromoto (the publisher of Furyu magazine, which is now I believe defunct) who is involved in Bitchu-den Takeuchi-ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu iaijutsu.

Good luck in whatever path you decide to follow.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks for all of the replies thus far. Mr. Goodin called me back and explained that it would fine for me to observe a class, but that the next time they are taking new students is in June. So, if I decide to train there, I would be waiting until summer. In the meantime, he suggested I look up this website.

http://hawaiikodanshakai.com/

 

[Makalakumu]

FC - they have an extensive Chinatown on Oahu. It's a bit intimidating because you don't feel like you are even in the United States when you go there.

 

[Flying Crane]

FC - they have an extensive Chinatown on Oahu. It's a bit intimidating because you don't feel like you are even in the United States when you go there.

Oh, I know it, but it's fun! And the best thing to do is get off the main streets and see if there are any little back alleys that slither around thru the blocks. that's where a lot of the stuff is here in SF. It was only by chance that I discovered some of the schools. I work near Chinatown so I sometimes just wander around during my lunch breaks. I've wandered thru there over and over, and I just happened to wander by when a door was open or a curtain pulled back. Nothing was happening inside, but I could tell it was a school. Lion for Lion Dance stacked in the corner, weapons in a rack against the wall, stuff like that. But often no signs on the door.

If something says "athletic association", that's probably a kung fu school.

it's fun, just walk around and try not to look like a tourist. Sure, you're never gonna blend in, but try to look like you've been there for years. Poke around and see what you find. Maybe a shop owner somewhere might be able to point something out to you.

 

[Guardian]

Personally, I think he is making a mistake by saying he doesn't know what he has to offer you or that your experience in one art might be hard to overcome speaking of the example that he gave.

To me any instructor/teacher worth their salt would gladly welcome the opportunity to show you their system and would be happy that you chose their system to add to your experience that you already have.

That's just my simple view on it of course.

I would keep trying, as it seems from what I read further, your making some inroads there. Persistence can pay off.

 

[exile]

John—

this may just be transference, or over-identification on my part. But I think that, like me, you want to get to the very bottom, the fundamental source, of the KMA techs you were doing—and we both know that those sources are to be found in the Okinawan Shuri styles, the more traditional, the better. I think it would be a mistake to go with Kendo, or FMAs, not because these are not wonderful, rich expressions of TMA possibilities, but because what you really want is the bedrock of your TSD techs—and that bedrock is old, old style Okinawan karate. I wouldn't give up if I were you. I know for a fact that if I were in your situation, I'd knock on every door there was until I could get a Shorin-ryu master to accept me as a student. It's in a way the logical culmination of your particular MA journey, I think, based on what you've told us in your posts, and I think you should follow it through to its conclusion, you know? To my way of thinking, anything else would be a kind of ... deflection of purpose. It's like you have 95% of the story, from your training and your own original research, and you just need that last bit to bring the ship safely into port...

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks for that post, Exile. Finding a place in a traditional dojo out here is a hard row to hoe. You don't offer money and expect to be taken on as a student. In fact, the Hikari no Dojo charges $5 a month for their lessons. the money is a token. The kind of dojos I'm looking at have 5-10 students. 20 at the very most and that is a huge training group. All of these teachers are very selective and very wary of taking on new students. For example, one of the Isshin Ryu people I approached interviewed me once on the phone, once in person, and once to test my skill. He said he would take me on as a student for two classes a month for $120 dollars. I took that to mean that he wasn't really serious, but was being polite and didn't want to say no. In Japanese culture, I guess this is commonplace, so I politely refused.

Anyway, I was invited to come and see a class and meet Mr. Goodin. I'm going to follow through with that and see where it leads. Hopefully I can make some in roads and get my name out there.

 

[MBuzzy]

That's amazing that the teachers are so selective there. I'm getting ready to move into a Japanese style for the same reasons and am getting increasingly apprehensive about the move. Is it possible to start at a larger school and once you have more experience in the style move into one of the more selective schools? Although that may hurt more than it helps...