Its All In There

MJS

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This thread is open to any Kenpo style....SKK, EPAK, Tracy, Kajukenbo, etc.

Many times, when the crosstraining subject comes up, some say that there is no need to, as everything we're looking for, is already in the system. Of course, whenever that is refuted, the usual come back is someone saying that perhaps its not the art itself, but the person doing the art.

So, that being said, I'd like to take any technique or any kata, from any Kenpo system, and ask how, if placed in a grappling situation, you would apply that technique. In other words, can combo #1 from the SKK system be applied or used if someone was mounted on you? Could Crossing Talon, from the Parker system, be used? For the katas, we could, for the sake of discussion, disect any part, to give an example of how you would transition the move from a standing to ground application.
 

Danjo

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This thread is open to any Kenpo style....SKK, EPAK, Tracy, Kajukenbo, etc.

Many times, when the crosstraining subject comes up, some say that there is no need to, as everything we're looking for, is already in the system. Of course, whenever that is refuted, the usual come back is someone saying that perhaps its not the art itself, but the person doing the art.

So, that being said, I'd like to take any technique or any kata, from any Kenpo system, and ask how, if placed in a grappling situation, you would apply that technique. In other words, can combo #1 from the SKK system be applied or used if someone was mounted on you? Could Crossing Talon, from the Parker system, be used? For the katas, we could, for the sake of discussion, disect any part, to give an example of how you would transition the move from a standing to ground application.

I think it's a bit more complex than that. It doesn't matter if every combination that your system has can be used for grappling, but whether your system addresses grappling situations. Now, in Kajukenbo, most of our moves involve starting from a standing position and responding to a grab, punch, club, knife attack etc. In each of these, we stop or evade the attack, stun the attacker, take him down (Stand up JJ and Judo), give him the works until he can't continue, and then walk away.

In addition to that, we train extensively in grappling so as to be familiar with it and our focus is on escaping so as to get back to where we can stomp them again. We're not really interested in a long ground game, but rather how to get out of it. We teach the basic Judo and BJJ type grappling skills in case we find ourselves going up against someone with those skills so we can counter them effectively.
 
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MJS

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Do you want to specifically focus on the grappling issue, or are there others as well?

The grappling issue for now, seeing that is usually the first thing that comes up when questioning Kenpo material. Hopefully, if this thread thrives with life, we can further explore other aspects of the katas. :)
 

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OK,well, I'll tell you what I understand.

I've been told that in the early days, meaning the 1950s and 1960s, training under Mr. Parker included a lot of falling, rolling, throwing kicks from a position on the ground, and "grappling" type material altho I don't believe it is the same type of grappling as would be found in a proper judo or BJJ type school.

In the Tracy system, this kind of thing has survived. Much of it has not been codified into the body of SD techs, altho some has in certain ways.

In Tracy kenpo, we do address grappling, but not as a judo or BJJ school would. Our approach to grappling is with the view on self defense, and not sporting nor with any desire to "win the match" or win the pin or the submission or the choke. We really only wish to break away and make good our escape. This includes inflicting damage on the attacker if necessary, but it excludes sticking around for the aftermath.

Our ground work is simple and limited, and is not designed for a prolonged grappling match. Our material would certainly not stand up to the rigors of a proper judo or BJJ match, but it's not designed nor intended to.

If we get knocked down, we fall, we get a base under us and use our feet/kicks to threaten and attack the attacker if he tries to get on us, we look for the first opportunity to regain our feet and then either escape or continue the fight from there. If the attacker gets on us, we leverage him off and break away. We do not wish to stay on the ground and fight a grappler's fight. We are aiming for self defense, and that ultimately means getting away with minimal injury. Self defense excludes staying on the ground if you have any other options. So the first option for escape that we get, we take.

Who is going to be the attacker on the street? Do you believe the Brazilians are training their students to be thugs and street punks, out to mug people? I don't believe that, and I don't believe it's realistic to expect the common mugger to be a skilled grappler.

Now of course many people have some level of grappling experience, even if it was just the backyard horseplay that many of us did as children. It's a sort of natural way to fight, especially if you are not specifically trained otherwise. So a certain attempt at a "grapple" may be realistic in a self defense situation, but I do not believe that the common thug will attack or fight or grapple like a Gracie. If self-defense is what you are interested in, I do not believe that the Gracies are the ones you need to worry about.

But that doesn't exclude the ability of our kenpo methods to be used against a trained grappler if needed, in a self defense situation. I think with good skill, one could prevent even a trained grappler from closing in on you, long enough to make good your escape or long enough to deterr his attack with other methods.
 

Thesemindz

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Who is going to be the attacker on the street? Do you believe the Brazilians are training their students to be thugs and street punks, out to mug people? I don't believe that, and I don't believe it's realistic to expect the common mugger to be a skilled grappler.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think it's also important to recognize the very real likelihood of finding yourself in an improptu grappling situation.

Imagine an attacker who charges you with a high two handed push. You defend with double outward handsword blocks, but as you step back into your neutral bow you bump into a table, causing your stance to shorten. At the same time, as your opponent was leaning in with his push you deflected his arms away from your body, causing his body to fall towards you without the assumed stop of his hands against your chest.

He crashes into you and knocks you back onto the table. Struggling, you manage to roll off the table onto the floor and are now laying side by side facing each other. You strike him several times while on the ground, but as you attempt to stand, you are pushed again from behind by his buddy just come out of the bathroom and land across your original attaker.

You are now in a grappling position called side control over your original attacker. His buddy is moving in quickly to strike you and your original attacker is trying to hold you long enough for his friend to attack.

Now you have a grappling position, with multiple attackers, and only seconds, if that, to act. No one here is a trained bjj student, but you have found yourself in a common grappling position none the less.

If you have at least some training in grappling technique, you will recognize the position and may be able to respond. If you have not, you may not know where to put your knees for balance and support, or where to hold your opponents arms, or how to put your weight on his body and use it to pin him and make yourself lighter and more maneuverable. You may not have any idea at all what to do if you have never been in this position in your training.

I'm not one who would throw out stand up training in place of ground training. I believe that a person should be able to defend themselves and continue fighting no matter where the battle takes them. Familiarity with ground fighting and grappling positions is an important part of that.


-Rob
 

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Sure "its in there," that doesn't mean it is in a terribly useful state. Ragu might have a bell pepper in the sauce somewhere, but if someone is really interested in just the bell pepper, handing them that bottle of sauce and saying "hey, look on the label, its in there" is pretty foolish.

Given that many kenpo schools barely teach how to fall anymore, I'm hard pressed to say that it has an extensive groundfighting curriculum. Given the fairly straightforward way kenpo presents its self-defense concepts, I would expect to see something a little more explicit that a conceptual extension of a standing technique to inform the student. We have explicit defenses against someone kicking you when you are down, against jujitsu finger locks, against pro-wrestling holds, and somehow that vocabulary managed to ignore the example of a guy sitting on your chest, the move that every big brother ever figured out by themselves.

I don't doubt we can extrapolate something from one of the explicit techs, and several people already have, but many of those people also have backgrounds in arts that cover those ranges, allowing them to develop the skills to utilize the conceptual movement. Beyond grappling, the explicit weapons curriculum is fairly marginal. In Tracy's Kenpo a bunch of borrow forms does not a weapons system make. In AK the double knife and stick forms are well, not awesome, or at best make guys from weapon-centric arts blink and say "thats.... nice."

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that an art has its strength in a particular range, they all pretty much do, but trying to be all things to all people is foolish.
 

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I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think it's also important to recognize the very real likelihood of finding yourself in an improptu grappling situation.

yes, read the next portion of my post, I believe I've sort of addressed the points you raise.
 

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the chances are very, very remote.

10 years as a bouncer, went to the ground less than 5 times

bite something, stick your fingers in thier eyes, something, anything to get them to let go, you get back up.

no one needs any more ground training than it takes to not freak out if they go to the ground, for self defense.



I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think it's also important to recognize the very real likelihood of finding yourself in an improptu grappling situation.
 

Jonny Figgis

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This is a subject that I have discussed with Kenpo people before and the overwhelming majority have said to me "If you end up on the ground, you've done something wrong." Well, s**t happens and people end up on the ground! You could slip on a wet floor, be facing multiple attackers, fall over a chair...these things happen to well trained people...fact.

While we're not pursuing a black belt in BJJ or interested in competing in grappling tournaments, we do cover quite a bit of groundwork with the emphasis on getting to your feet as quickly as possible. We're not looking for leg locks, rear naked chokes, or arm bars, we're looking to bridge, gain a dominant position, strike and escape asap. If stuck on the bottom, we strike vulnerable areas such as the groin, eyes, throat as many times as is necessary to stop the attack. We drill this as realistically as possible, wearing a gi, wearing street clothes and sometimes with the attacker wearing a F.I.S.T. Suit or other body armour to enable the defender to go "all out" on him. This works well for us and I personally feel it gives me a more rounded approach to self defence as we constantly look at the different ranges of fighting...kicking, punching and grappling.

A good topic to discuss...
 

DavidCC

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in stand-up techniques the bodies are in a relative position (parallel, foot-to-foot and head-to-head) that you don't often see on the ground.

On the ground you get relative rotations through all 3 dimensions. So movements that make sense standing up need to be re-evaluated when the bodies for example are rotated 90 degrees to each other in the veryical plane (under full mount).

The things you may know about angles, ranges, dimension control are still true, for the most part I think they have been learned in a "2 bodies vertically parallel" position. Picture any groundfighting position 2 people might be in, and mentally rotate them until one of them is in a standing position. Now, look at the angles and ranges of the weapons and his dimensions and pivot points etc etc however your style teaches you these things...

So kenpo/kempo teaches how to assess and make use of ranges, angles weapons, control dimensions to restrict ability to attack; how to manipulate posture and position to give advantage; how to use the entire body; etc and these things all still are true, just the assumption of relative postition goes out the window.
 

Danjo

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in stand-up techniques the bodies are in a relative position (parallel, foot-to-foot and head-to-head) that you don't often see on the ground.

On the ground you get relative rotations through all 3 dimensions. So movements that make sense standing up need to be re-evaluated when the bodies for example are rotated 90 degrees to each other in the veryical plane (under full mount).

The things you may know about angles, ranges, dimension control are still true, for the most part I think they have been learned in a "2 bodies vertically parallel" position. Picture any groundfighting position 2 people might be in, and mentally rotate them until one of them is in a standing position. Now, look at the angles and ranges of the weapons and his dimensions and pivot points etc etc however your style teaches you these things...

So kenpo/kempo teaches how to assess and make use of ranges, angles weapons, control dimensions to restrict ability to attack; how to manipulate posture and position to give advantage; how to use the entire body; etc and these things all still are true, just the assumption of relative postition goes out the window.

David, I hate to tell you this, but I think that whatever Doc has, you're catching it. Might want to get that checked out. ;)
 

DavidCC

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David, I hate to tell you this, but I think that whatever Doc has, you're catching it. Might want to get that checked out. ;)

LOL thinking can be contagious

I have a Doc appt Feb 21 & 22 in Omaha. Housecalls FTW. Danjo fly out and I will pay your way in.
 

Flying Crane

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MJS: I suspect you have your own thoughts and opinions on the matter. Since this is your thread, care to comment or otherwise add to the discussion?
 

Thesemindz

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So, that being said, I'd like to take any technique or any kata, from any Kenpo system, and ask how, if placed in a grappling situation, you would apply that technique. In other words, can combo #1 from the SKK system be applied or used if someone was mounted on you? Could Crossing Talon, from the Parker system, be used? For the katas, we could, for the sake of discussion, disect any part, to give an example of how you would transition the move from a standing to ground application.

Ok, I've got one.

I was taught a variation on Thrusting Prongs which is executed in this manner.


Striking Thumbs
Attack: Front bearhug, arms pinned
Direction: 12 o’clock
1. Drop you weight by letting it slump straight down, arch your back, and tuck your chin into your chest. The reasons for this is to make it easier to break away from the bearhug as we are about to step backward, and protect our face from the natural reaction of the attacker to the impending groin strike.
2. Step back with your right into a left forward bow stance facing 12 as you simultaneously execute a double forward thumb strike to the attacker’s bladder.
3. The attacker’s grasp should be broken now, immediately bring your left around the attacker’s right arm in an adducting circle into an inward hooking trap, keeping the attacker’s arm trapped against your left shoulder.
4. Execute a step-through knee kick (lifting) to the attacker’s body, causing him to stand up, as you swing your right arm behind you past the chambered position to generate opposing forces for the knee.
5. Land forward, continuing to apply the trap, into a right neutral bow facing 12, applying a neutral bow knee check to the attacker’s right leg. As you land, without loss of motion from step four, loop the right arm into an inward elbow striking the left cheekbone using marriage of gravity to add power.
6. Cover out to 6.


The trapping and stiking portions of this technique are very close to what I was taught as an "oompah" mount defense.

The mount defense as I was taught it was to

Push your opponent down towards your hips by placing pressure on his bladder with both hands

Trap one arm and one leg on the same side of the body

Arch you hips up and at a 45 degree angle towards your head in the direction of the arm and leg you pinned on your opponent.

Now, take the Striking Thumbs techinque I posted, and extrapolate those same movements to a position where my opponent is mounted on top of me while I lay on the ground.

I thrust my thumbs into his bladder, forcing him towards my hips, pin his right arm and pull him in towards my body, then use my right inward elbow strike in conjunction with lifting my hips and bucking up and at an angle to roll my opponent over so I am in his guard.

It's not an exact translation, but this is one example where the movements of the standing technique are very similar to those of a grappling technique. With some variation, we can translate a great deal of our standing skills to the ground. Though I believe that process can only take place effectively if we actually train it. Merely saying, "it's in there," doesn't mean we can find it.


-Rob
 

LawDog

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Almost anything can be applied when on the floor if your position is correctly matched to your opponents position.
Most stand up's do not understand how to use floor positions correctly. Think of the floor positions in the same light as the stand up positions.
They all have,
*Balance points,
*Leverage points,
*Control points,
*Transitional techniques,(from one technique to another),
*Transitional moves,(moving from position to position on the floor),
*Ect. ect.
Learn and practice them and you will find that almost anything can be done from the correct position.
Think K.I.S.S.
:ultracool
 
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MJS

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I think it's a bit more complex than that. It doesn't matter if every combination that your system has can be used for grappling, but whether your system addresses grappling situations. Now, in Kajukenbo, most of our moves involve starting from a standing position and responding to a grab, punch, club, knife attack etc. In each of these, we stop or evade the attack, stun the attacker, take him down (Stand up JJ and Judo), give him the works until he can't continue, and then walk away.

And this is, IMHO, difference #1. So, if I'm reading this correctly, the majority of the Kaju techs. end up with the person on the ground, that would differ from many of the Kenpo techs.

In addition to that, we train extensively in grappling so as to be familiar with it and our focus is on escaping so as to get back to where we can stomp them again. We're not really interested in a long ground game, but rather how to get out of it. We teach the basic Judo and BJJ type grappling skills in case we find ourselves going up against someone with those skills so we can counter them effectively.

And this, IMO, is difference #2. While we see kicks and things from the ground in the Infinite Insights books by Ed Parker, we don't usually see what you describe above. Of course, if its taught at certain schools or if someone takes on crosstraining on their own, that would be the exception.
 
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MJS

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OK,well, I'll tell you what I understand.

I've been told that in the early days, meaning the 1950s and 1960s, training under Mr. Parker included a lot of falling, rolling, throwing kicks from a position on the ground, and "grappling" type material altho I don't believe it is the same type of grappling as would be found in a proper judo or BJJ type school.

In the Tracy system, this kind of thing has survived. Much of it has not been codified into the body of SD techs, altho some has in certain ways.

In Tracy kenpo, we do address grappling, but not as a judo or BJJ school would. Our approach to grappling is with the view on self defense, and not sporting nor with any desire to "win the match" or win the pin or the submission or the choke. We really only wish to break away and make good our escape. This includes inflicting damage on the attacker if necessary, but it excludes sticking around for the aftermath.

Our ground work is simple and limited, and is not designed for a prolonged grappling match. Our material would certainly not stand up to the rigors of a proper judo or BJJ match, but it's not designed nor intended to.

If we get knocked down, we fall, we get a base under us and use our feet/kicks to threaten and attack the attacker if he tries to get on us, we look for the first opportunity to regain our feet and then either escape or continue the fight from there. If the attacker gets on us, we leverage him off and break away. We do not wish to stay on the ground and fight a grappler's fight. We are aiming for self defense, and that ultimately means getting away with minimal injury. Self defense excludes staying on the ground if you have any other options. So the first option for escape that we get, we take.

Who is going to be the attacker on the street? Do you believe the Brazilians are training their students to be thugs and street punks, out to mug people? I don't believe that, and I don't believe it's realistic to expect the common mugger to be a skilled grappler.

Now of course many people have some level of grappling experience, even if it was just the backyard horseplay that many of us did as children. It's a sort of natural way to fight, especially if you are not specifically trained otherwise. So a certain attempt at a "grapple" may be realistic in a self defense situation, but I do not believe that the common thug will attack or fight or grapple like a Gracie. If self-defense is what you are interested in, I do not believe that the Gracies are the ones you need to worry about.

But that doesn't exclude the ability of our kenpo methods to be used against a trained grappler if needed, in a self defense situation. I think with good skill, one could prevent even a trained grappler from closing in on you, long enough to make good your escape or long enough to deterr his attack with other methods.

For clarification, I'm certainly not advocating staying on the ground for X amount of time, rolling, looking for some submission. By all means, do what you gotta do, get back up and finish from standing. Likewise, while we may not face a Royce on the ground or a Filipino knife master, I would think that with the grappling/MMA craze, you may find more people working on ground stuff. I think its also proof from the early UFCs, that many of these highly skilled guys were fish outta water once they were off their land legs.

Sure, we have our dirty fighting...all the nasty tricks that we can emply and God knows, Kenpo is full of them. :) But, for me anyways, I like to have a plan B, for when those tricks may not work. Kaju obviously does some ground training, so they ( the founders and current teachers) apparently feel that it was a) worth putting in and b) still worth training. I look at it like this....we can take a tech. that was designed for stand up and try to make it work on the ground or we could take some basic grappling, and use a proven escape to get us back to our feet. What makes more sense?

On another note, I have a series of clips that were sent to me by someone who shall remain nameless. They were of a GM Mike Pick seminar. In one of the clips he stated something along the lines of, "And back in the early days, the old man taught ground fighting." Now, is this still taught in schools today? Did it get removed at some point? Maybe I'm the one thats missing it, but its taught at other Kenpo schools. But, I'm sure Mr. Parker wasn't a stupid man and he put that in for a reason. Again, I ask, if it was put in, where did it go? Why is Jeff Speakman revamping his material over what was supposedly taught?

For the record, my intent is not to bash the Kenpo arts. My God, if that was the case, I wouldn't still be training the art for all this time. :)
 
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MJS

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I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think it's also important to recognize the very real likelihood of finding yourself in an improptu grappling situation.

Imagine an attacker who charges you with a high two handed push. You defend with double outward handsword blocks, but as you step back into your neutral bow you bump into a table, causing your stance to shorten. At the same time, as your opponent was leaning in with his push you deflected his arms away from your body, causing his body to fall towards you without the assumed stop of his hands against your chest.

He crashes into you and knocks you back onto the table. Struggling, you manage to roll off the table onto the floor and are now laying side by side facing each other. You strike him several times while on the ground, but as you attempt to stand, you are pushed again from behind by his buddy just come out of the bathroom and land across your original attaker.

You are now in a grappling position called side control over your original attacker. His buddy is moving in quickly to strike you and your original attacker is trying to hold you long enough for his friend to attack.

Now you have a grappling position, with multiple attackers, and only seconds, if that, to act. No one here is a trained bjj student, but you have found yourself in a common grappling position none the less.

If you have at least some training in grappling technique, you will recognize the position and may be able to respond. If you have not, you may not know where to put your knees for balance and support, or where to hold your opponents arms, or how to put your weight on his body and use it to pin him and make yourself lighter and more maneuverable. You may not have any idea at all what to do if you have never been in this position in your training.

I'm not one who would throw out stand up training in place of ground training. I believe that a person should be able to defend themselves and continue fighting no matter where the battle takes them. Familiarity with ground fighting and grappling positions is an important part of that.


-Rob

Can't add much more to this. :) I'm far from a BJJ master myself, but I've been doing it long enough, and working the basics long enough to hold my own pretty well. I'm really not interested in learning 50 mount, guard and side mount escapes and submissions, but....as I said, I'm doing the basics, and for the reasons you mention above. :)
 
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