Its about the journey not the destination

Zero

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
297
No, when I said "a few" it was because somebody asked me how many people passed me in rank and got a black belt while I was still waiting and I told them, "a few," by that, I mean two or three people. That was the first time somebody asked me such a question.
Sorry, I got context wrong, I thought it was a few in the same boat as you. Now I understand it was a few that went past you. Thanks.
 

Zero

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
297
You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. I'm going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.
PG! This revealing answer is much appreciated and probably now explains to many of us the true driver of what was going on (or a large part of it). I hope you have or are able to build up confidence in asking others, like your sensei, these kind of questions and wish you luck in dealing with your fears or uncertainties. Maybe if you have not already moved on, the fact you have now admitted you were scared to Tez (even if just on an online forum) might be a start.

Members on this site can get a bit exasperated or appear curt or grumpy at times (well, at least I can), when they see someone repeatedly going on about something that just doesn't make sense or does not add up - but most of the apples here are a good bunch and many with a heck of a lot of experience to draw on - although tis is of course primarily a martial arts, etc site.

Peace!
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
I think it's time to draw this to a close now we've had a very good post from PG about the position he was in at the time, it's obviously left it's mark on him and I'm sorry for that. The time has come to move on I think to more positive things, I can't close this thread nor stop people posting but can ask politely please can we draw a line under this thread and move one.

To PG, I hope you don't feel this was dragged out of you, and I hope that martial arts and training has been a more positive experience since, it's time now to leave it in the past, to stand up and say that this will not define who I am. Leave this thread now and start having a look at some positive points of your training, look forwards instead of backwards. You have my best wishes.
 

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,226
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Melbourne, Australia
While I agree that this thread (and, hopefully, this entire line of conversation from many past threads) has likely gone about as far as it could, there are one or two things I'd like to address and clarify.

The clip is titled as a Shotokan self defense clip however he is also incorporating some Judo throws into it. Overall I must say he looks like he's really good, his technique is clean, crisp, and precise although he could put more hip into his techniques. What I've been taught is to really put your hip into it when you throw a technique. Also, at one point he swings his leg way up, I don't see why he would do that.

Okay. thanks for that.

To be honest, this appraisal kinda confirms what I've thought in a number of ways here. It's not important to continue along this line, but thank you for answering.

So lets say somebody who will never be good enough for black belt because they just don't have the potential, would they even make it to brown?

Sure, they might. Put it this way just because someone isn't skilled enough to become a tennis pro, it doesn't mean they can't have a good amateur career. It's not a matter of anyone walking in the dojo being automatically good enough to get a black belt as that's simply not the reality. But, by the same token, those unable to get a black belt don't stay as a white belt forever either.

What you can see about somebody from messages they post on a board is very limited.

Honestly, you'd be surprised.

Exactly, it does take hard work and effort to get anywhere but as you said the effort has to be put where it should be put otherwise its just wasted effort and sometimes you might have to ask, at the right time. You wouldn't want to ask in the middle of class but before or after class could be a good time.

You've missed the point again.

At any school you will have to know how its run, and if you're not clear on how its run it would make sense to ask.

Yes, and no-one has said any different.

And thats all the more reason I believe its very important to get things done in a timely manner. Old age, happens to the best of us. Therefore I believe in doing and achieving as much as you can as soon as you can so that way by the time you do get old you will have much to look back on and say that you really did have a good youth. Otherwise life will pass you by and you will be old and grumpy and not pleased with yourself, or with life.

Yeah you missed the tone there completely.

Well for some of the really high dan ranks it might take ten years or more to move up in rank, although in most styles for that we're talking above fifth dan. As for the person, yes there are some people who will get to a certain rank and stay there and not care to advance any further. At my dojo there is this guy who is at low brown, the lowest of the three levels of brown belt and he has been there for many years and he has said that he doesn't care to advance any further. He just wants to keep coming to class and working on his training and technique but he doesn't care for any further rank advancement. However, for somebody who wants to go up in rank, for them to take ten years to go up any one rank up to and including first degree black belt, for them to take ten years I think is absurd.

It may be absurd to you, but, well, that's exactly what happened.

And here's possibly the most important thing from all of these threads saying it's "absurd", or "shouldn't happen", or anything else that implies that you have any real say in how reality occurs, is just deluding yourself. You feel it's absurd okay. But it happened. It's reality. There could have been any number of reasons that you weren't approached to ask why you hadn't asked to be assessed honestly, if your instructor thought you were ready, he would have told you. The fact that he didn't (whether you asked or not) says a lot. And, to that end, whether or not you feel it was right, absurd, silly, or anything else, doesn't matter. It happened. It's reality.

You can call it silly but there've been people here who've said its disrespectful to ask. So if you don't ask its silly, if you do ask its disrespectful, a catch 22.

That's not really what they said, though it's how you interpreted it.

Because I had the impression, which now looking back I regret, that its disrespectful to ask. As I said I regret having that impression but there've been other people on this board who have said its disrespectful to ask.

You missed what was being said. No-one thinks it's disrespectful to ask an instructor questions or to ask what's required to grade or be assessed the disrespect is shown when you ask to be graded off your own back. In that case, it's implying that you are a better judge of your rank and abilities than your instructor but if you're just asking what you need to do, or show, to be assessed, that's not been claimed to be disrespectful by anyone.

You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. Im going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.

Okay, good! Thank you for this it's one of the first times you've actually given some insight into your own reasons that you continued on in this manner for so long. Of course, the question then is what were you afraid of but it might not be necessary to delve too deep into that publicly here.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,067
Reaction score
3,157
Location
Phoenix, AZ
PG, you never got back and answered my question in post #338, which was did you ever finally get your black belt, and are you currently training in the martial arts?

I ask because like Tez in post #343 above, I believe you have spent more than enough time rehashing the past for whatever lessons may be learned, and I sincerely encourage you to move on and look forward to the journey ahead. :)
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
PhotonGuy... please bring me up to date. I'm sure you've probably already answered this several times along the line, but if so I missed it. Anyway, where are you NOW in your training? Are you in the same system and did you finally test and earn your black belt? ...or even higher rank?
Eventually yes, although it took me much longer than it should've. I had plans in life that depended on me getting a black belt within a certain time period. And no, I haven't been promoted to a higher rank. Although some people pursue it, I don't really care to pursue the higher degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) I just want to keep getting better in general.

And also, as the title of this very long thread is about the journey, not the destination, why are you still carrying on about the rank (destination) if you are still training and enjoying the journey???
That's the direction the thread has taken, there's been much talk about rank in this thread. And rank is the journey. There is no rank that's the ultimate destination. Just because you reach a certain rank doesn't mean the journey stops, it keeps going for as long as you're involved in the martial arts.

Heck, I haven't been promoted in rank since 1987. Well, I did stop training for about 15 years, from about 1992 to 2007. But I've been back at it since the summer of 2007 ...that's 8 more years, and teaching again for the last 6 years or so as well. It would be great to get at least one more promotion before I retire some day. I'd really like that. But if it doesn't happen...well I'm enjoying the journey. How about you?

Well I haven't been promoted since 2003, unless you include the few years I did Tae Kwon Do and got a gold belt, (third belt up). For me, getting first degree is enough for me in terms or rank but I would at least want to get that rank.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
And yet a number of people graded to first dan during that period, and somehow you were not in a position for one of them to say to you in passing, 'oh yeah, I had to apply'.
Those people who did bypass me and get first dan, they would ask sensei if they were ready and if sensei told them yes than they would test. I never asked.

I don't see why this is still an issue for you anyway. The world has moved on.
Because its important to learn from your mistakes even though they're in the past. And, I've been trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with asking the head instructor certain stuff and it appears lots of people agree with me but there are some people who say its disrespectful.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
Ah I see and I'm very sorry, that's not a nice situation to be in. It's not pleasant admitting that either so well done you for getting it off your chest. what you need to do now is also get it off your mind, it's done, you've learnt from it and can move on, don't dwell on it anymore, move onwards and upwards.

Perhaps an end to this thread would be a good start, move on to something that's current for you.
Well I deal with past mistakes by talking about it. And let me tell you something about regret. Regret will haunt you, I speak from my own experience. My mistake was not talking to sensei. And lets face it, a sensei is a human being like anyone else so talking to them about stuff shouldn't be seen as disrespectful. You might agree with me on that but there's been people who don't and Im trying to drive the point home to them that a sensei is not a god.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
PG, you never got back and answered my question in post #338, which was did you ever finally get your black belt, and are you currently training in the martial arts?

I ask because like Tez in post #343 above, I believe you have spent more than enough time rehashing the past for whatever lessons may be learned, and I sincerely encourage you to move on and look forward to the journey ahead. :)

I've been off the board for awhile but by now I have answered you, a few posts up.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
Sure, they might. Put it this way just because someone isn't skilled enough to become a tennis pro, it doesn't mean they can't have a good amateur career. It's not a matter of anyone walking in the dojo being automatically good enough to get a black belt as that's simply not the reality. But, by the same token, those unable to get a black belt don't stay as a white belt forever either.
It would depend on many factors, one of them being what standards the sensei sets for black belt and for the other belts. Somebody unable to get a black belt might not always stay a white belt but would they make it as far as one rank under black? That would mean that they would come so close but be unable to make that last step.

As for being a tennis pro, very few people are ever at that level. Its like being in the NFL or the NBA or the Major Leagues. Not what I would consider an equivalent of black belt. I would consider an equivalent of black belt more along the lines of a student with an A average, or somebody who gets a high school or college diploma. Most people in high school or college eventually get their diploma if they're in there long enough and they don't drop out.

Yeah you missed the tone there completely.

So what is the tone?

You missed what was being said. No-one thinks it's disrespectful to ask an instructor questions or to ask what's required to grade or be assessed the disrespect is shown when you ask to be graded off your own back. In that case, it's implying that you are a better judge of your rank and abilities than your instructor but if you're just asking what you need to do, or show, to be assessed, that's not been claimed to be disrespectful by anyone.
Asking to be graded or asking to be automatically promoted in rank, I can see how that would be disrespectful but its not the same as asking if you're ready to test since with tests you can fail. And that's what I've been pointing out, that its only proper to ask the instructor if you're ready to test and if you're not what you need to do to get ready, what you need to work on. Assuming a student wants to advance.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
6,818
Location
Pueblo West, CO
And rank is the journey.

This remains as wrong now as the other 6,483 (estimated) times you've said it. The journey and the destination are both about knowledge and skill. Rank is irrelevant to both the journey AND the destination.
 

Gnarlie

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Messages
1,913
Reaction score
442
Location
Germany
Those people who did bypass me and get first dan, they would ask sensei if they were ready and if sensei told them yes than they would test. I never asked.

And you didn't manage to find out from them what they had done in order to test??

Because its important to learn from your mistakes even though they're in the past. And, I've been trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with asking the head instructor certain stuff and it appears lots of people agree with me but there are some people who say its disrespectful.

I don't understand why it matters now, especially given that you have not graded further. You have referenced a number of times some kind of plan that involved you getting to first dan by a particular time. If you were never going to grade further, then what did it even matter?? Has this in some way stymied your grand plan for the rest of your martial career? Did you plan to go on to instruct and or open a dojo? Why does any of it matter? Why are we still talking about it?
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
Regret will haunt you

Not if you don't let it. Many things happen to us in life that we have little or no control over, things happen that we could have dealt with differently or better but the trick to life is that while you don't have control over a lot of things you always have control over how you think about things and how you look at them. It's how people have survive horrors and unimaginable situations without breaking down. Let it go.
 

RowdyAz

Orange Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
69
Reaction score
17
Not if you don't let it. Many things happen to us in life that we have little or no control over, things happen that we could have dealt with differently or better but the trick to life is that while you don't have control over a lot of things you always have control over how you think about things and how you look at them. It's how people have survive horrors and unimaginable situations without breaking down. Let it go.
Tez this is the most on point message that I have ever seen posted. Not that I am a newbie but more the fact of life experience. To hit the nail on the head with out the I rank you crap is a blessing. Because at the end of the day means deadly squat. I feel for the those whose rank is a club thing but in the heat of the moment means nothing. Godless, Godspeed

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
Asking to be graded or asking to be automatically promoted in rank, I can see how that would be disrespectful but its not the same as asking if you're ready to test since with tests you can fail. And that's what I've been pointing out, that its only proper to ask the instructor if you're ready to test and if you're not what you need to do to get ready, what you need to work on. Assuming a student wants to advance.

Let it go, don't make me have to post the song.

It's trivial, it really is. I don't know how much you guys are getting on the news but at this moment refugees from the horrors of war, civil war, IS and the Taliban are making their way to try and find safe haven in Europe. There hasn't been a refugee crisis like this since World War Two. Not all are making it, children's bodies have been washing ashore in Italy and Greece, ( I can post photos if you insist) men women and children were found suffocated to death in a wagon abandoned on an Austrian motorway ( I can post photos of that horror as well), there are families walking from Syria to Europe, they are even walking from Afghanistan., some have walked up from Syria to the north of Russia across to Norway to find sanctuary ( look up the distance) children are walking huge distances on their own to get to Europe, people are getting on tiny inflatable boats and drowning in the Med, the misery, suffering and horror are overwhelming AND YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT NOT GETTING A BLACK BELT FOR TEN YEARS. Yes I'm shouting, because it's up to you, you have control of your life so bloody let it go and get on with a life that has been denied to so many.

This is a journey Out of Afghanistan: incredible stories of the boys who walked to Europe Boys in Afghanistan are prone to being sexually abused. the girls to have acid thrown in their faces for attending school and also forced marriages. Black belt, not they don't think about that.
Syrian refugees find Arctic route towards western Europe

How the people of Iceland view things, excellent people. Icelanders call on government to take in more Syrian refugees

So, still regret not getting your belt? It doesn't matter, you can't go back, go out, do a sponsored kickathon/press-ups/something and raise money for the refugees but please stop whining.
 

Gnarlie

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Messages
1,913
Reaction score
442
Location
Germany
Let it go, don't make me have to post the song.

It's trivial, it really is. I don't know how much you guys are getting on the news but at this moment refugees from the horrors of war, civil war, IS and the Taliban are making their way to try and find safe haven in Europe. There hasn't been a refugee crisis like this since World War Two. Not all are making it, children's bodies have been washing ashore in Italy and Greece, ( I can post photos if you insist) men women and children were found suffocated to death in a wagon abandoned on an Austrian motorway ( I can post photos of that horror as well), there are families walking from Syria to Europe, they are even walking from Afghanistan., some have walked up from Syria to the north of Russia across to Norway to find sanctuary ( look up the distance) children are walking huge distances on their own to get to Europe, people are getting on tiny inflatable boats and drowning in the Med, the misery, suffering and horror are overwhelming AND YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT NOT GETTING A BLACK BELT FOR TEN YEARS. Yes I'm shouting, because it's up to you, you have control of your life so bloody let it go and get on with a life that has been denied to so many.

This is a journey Out of Afghanistan: incredible stories of the boys who walked to Europe Boys in Afghanistan are prone to being sexually abused. the girls to have acid thrown in their faces for attending school and also forced marriages. Black belt, not they don't think about that.
Syrian refugees find Arctic route towards western Europe

How the people of Iceland view things, excellent people. Icelanders call on government to take in more Syrian refugees

So, still regret not getting your belt? It doesn't matter, you can't go back, go out, do a sponsored kickathon/press-ups/something and raise money for the refugees but please stop whining.

Was able to greet and help some of those people face to face yesterday. Very moving.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-for-refugees-arriving-by-train-10481522.html
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
Was able to greet and help some of those people face to face yesterday. Very moving.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-for-refugees-arriving-by-train-10481522.html


Germany has been so good hasn't it, I'm glad you could help too. We're collecting clothes etc for the people in Calais.

The thing is that PG needs to think about is that wallowing in your own mistakes and regrets gets you no where, in the scheme of things we are all actually very small so getting out, helping others, being positive and not dwelling on the past is something that makes a difference not just for you but for others. A long thread on MT doesn't mean a lot either but if it's symptomatic of the way PG lives his life then it's not a good way to live.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
PG..... this is the account of one volunteer who went to Calais to help the refugees. It's hard sometimes not to think you are the only one in the world who has problems and other people's problems don't concern you but they do, it should matter to all of us because there but for the grace of G-d go you and I.
I make no apologies for totally derailing the thread, there is a purpose to this, for people to see that there is more than 'I' in life, there is 'us'.


"I went to Calais with no expectation. Full of fear that the atrocities I had seen in the media might be correct and that the people there were in fact the monsters that that have been portrayed. Was I self entitled and feeling guilty? Perhaps. Was I scared that I was leading other people to believe that there were good people in the jungle and I might be wrong? Maybe. Was I full of hope that everything above would be overcome by the reality of the plight we would encounter. I hoped so.

[Moderator note - Edited to comply with Fair Use Doctrine.]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
3,719
Reaction score
413
This remains as wrong now as the other 6,483 (estimated) times you've said it. The journey and the destination are both about knowledge and skill. Rank is irrelevant to both the journey AND the destination.
Knowledge and skill are required for rank so therefore rank would be part of the journey. This wouldn't apply to styles that don't use rank and based on your approach to rank that you've made clear about 6,483 times yourself you don't sound like somebody who would use rank when you teach.
 
Top