Its about the journey not the destination

[Tez3]

Fist of all, didn't mean to put anyone's knickers in a knot. Apologies if I inadvertently pushed anyone's buttons, I am now beginning to realise that this issue is extremely vexing to you inasmuch as it is to PG/OP.

Ok, knickers aren't in a twist and I'm certainly not vexed. None of us are 'heavily invested' in what is going on here, I think you have misread it again. This is the internet, we are just a bunch of people who were asked a question by someone who didn't like the answer, we have lives and this is not even a few minutes out of this life.
Sorry the phrase spiritually aggrieved still doesn't mean anything unless it means you've lost your sense of humour along with the Ashes, England may have lost before but never in under two hours!

 

[Xue Sheng]

If I Do, I Get a Whippin, "I Dood It!

should probably just smile and walk away but I am a bit perplexed by the application of "Spiritually Aggrieved" (Please forgive the confusion but I'm a silly Yank afterall)

Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......

spiritually

adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.

2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.

3. Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.

4. Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

aggrieved

adjective

1. wronged, offended, or injured:

2. Law. deprived of legal rights or claims.

3. troubled; worried; disturbed; unhappy.

 

[Tez3]

Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......

That's what I was thinking. I don't think I've ever been 'spiritually aggrieved' unless it happened in my sleep without me knowing, you know like that meme that says spiders rub their willies across your face when you are sleeping
As for thinking we are vexed lol, the poster doesn't know us very well otherwise he'd know how often we spill coffee on our keyboards laughing as we type!

 

[Geo]

should probably just smile and walk away but I am a bit perplexed by the application of "Spiritually Aggrieved" (Please forgive the confusion but I'm a silly Yank afterall)

Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......

Hi Xue Sheng

One may be excused for posting a reply without the benefit of "context". I have been told by a few members here that I have committed such in offering a comment regarding the current debate. Allow me to offer to you my original post:

So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?

As you can see my post was not prescriptive rather an invitation for everyone to appraise the value of the current discussion and to decide whether they wish to linger or not. It's good that you can illuminate the denotations of 'spiritual' and 'aggrieved' after all its is important to go back to the base meaning of things. Be that as it may words have connotations (as you know):

connotation
[kon-uh-tey-shuh n]
noun

1. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression inaddition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of“home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”.
2. the act of connoting; the suggesting of an additional meaning for aword or expression, apart from its explicit meaning.

2. something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described:
3. Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied;comprehension; intention.

As Tez put it eloquently:

Sorry the phrase spiritually aggrieved still doesn't mean anything unless it means you've lost your sense of humour

Her's is a seeming loss of humour in the situation. Which is palpable in the tone of the replies of some and perhaps of mine.

Peace!

 

[Geo]

That's what I was thinking. I don't think I've ever been 'spiritually aggrieved' unless it happened in my sleep without me knowing, you know like that meme that says spiders rub their willies across your face when you are sleeping
As for thinking we are vexed lol, the poster doesn't know us very well otherwise he'd know how often we spill coffee on our keyboards laughing as we type!

Tez

Thanks for that and my apologies. I'll never know the real value of this forum to you, but one thing I notice though you seem to spend a lot of time in it (as do I). You probably have forged alliances here through the years who will back you up. After all 16 messages pales to insignificance compared to 19,203 and 22'343 messages.

England may have lost before but never in under two hours!

Cheeky! Very Cheeky!! On another note the Wallabies just lost the Bledisloe Cup...again to the All Blacks! We are going down the gurgler!

Just one final word on spiritual aggrievement. If I offended I apologise, If I entertained due to the ludicrousness of my post then I'm glad. I'm moving on!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi Xue Sheng

One may be excused for posting a reply without the benefit of "context". I have been told by a few members here that I have committed such in offering a comment regarding the current debate. Allow me to offer to you my original post:



As you can see my post was not prescriptive rather an invitation for everyone to appraise the value of the current discussion and to decide whether they wish to linger or not. It's good that you can illuminate the denotations of 'spiritual' and 'aggrieved' after all its is important to go back to the base meaning of things. Be that as it may words have connotations (as you know):

connotation
[kon-uh-tey-shuh n]
noun

1. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression inaddition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of“home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”.
2. the act of connoting; the suggesting of an additional meaning for aword or expression, apart from its explicit meaning.

2. something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described:
3. Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied;comprehension; intention.

As Tez put it eloquently:



Her's is a seeming loss of humour in the situation. Which is palpable in the tone of the replies of some and perhaps of mine.

Peace!

Yup, I read your post. But your posts now begs the question, what did you mean with you posted "spiritually aggrieved".... To me, words have meaning, and if those meanings are not followed, and there is some other meaning applied by the user of those words, then they need to be explained. Because by using alternate or personal definition you then enter into the realm of Semantics (as you know)

semantics (in Linguistics.)

1. the study of meaning.
2. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

 

[Geo]

Yup, I read your post. But your posts now begs the question, what did you mean with you posted "spiritually aggrieved".... To me, words have meaning, and if those meanings are not followed, and there is some other meaning applied by the user of those words, then they need to be explained. Because by using alternate or personal definition you then enter into the realm of Semantics (as you know)

Hi Xue

Yep semantics, agree with your quandary. I'm beginning to realise that I should have picked the tone and level of the language I used in my posts, my apologies.

You are one the few that directly asked my meaning, thanks. As for 'spiritually aggrieved' please allow me to use an Aussie' slang in the spirit (oops there it is again) of being less formal about the whole thing..so if I was to transcribe 'spiritual aggrievance' I'd say one has 'spat the dummy', although TEZ might claim the origin of that phrase that we colonials 'pinched'.

I'll try not to be too dramatic next time, I hope we had a laugh about it.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for that and my apologies. I'll never know the real value of this forum to you, but one thing I notice though you seem to spend a lot of time in it (as do I).

There is value here and I suppose I do spend a while on here, it's my bribe for doing the housework lol. I hate housework and when the children grew up and moved out I though I'd have less but for some reason now both my husband and I are retired ( him through ill health so we don't get out as much as we used to) it seems there's even more of it! so it's do this pile of ironing and I will have a look at MT etc. I came across this place years ago when I was bedridden, so I guess I have got virtual friends here. Hopefully another in you.
Oh and we have the rugby world cup coming up!

 

[PhotonGuy]

Again, that's not the point. If you're taking people's comments "with a grain of salt", it means to apply a level of distrust and skepticism to what they're saying… I'm saying that that is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. It's nothing to do with getting worked up over what they say… it's more a matter of recognising what they're actually saying, and why.

Well put it this way, I don't take it personally about what people say on the board. After all they don't know me from Adam and I don't know them from Adam so it would be silly to take what they say personally.

Okay… but it's still irrelevant, and has nothing at all to do with your situation. You described the way your instructor handled someone who explicitly said they weren't interested in further ranking… so, unless you also made similar comments, it's got nothing to do with anything you've been talking about… and, if you did, then you've been presenting a very false image of the situation.

This is just an observation but you sure appear to prefer a very structured conversation, at least on the boards you do.

So… what are you saying here? People might be offended, but you aren't, but people might be, so….?

Look. Yeah, I speak bluntly. I'm more of a "tough love" kinda guy. And, frankly, nothing less than that has been close to getting through to you.

Well you sure are very critical.

 

[PhotonGuy]

↑
No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.

That's what I said.

Well lets face it, its absurd to take close to ten years to go up just one rank, isn't it?

 

[PhotonGuy]

My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.

As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.

 

[Tez3]

As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.

'Chinese whispers' it's know as, we play it with the brownies then teach then, it's part of a badge, to carry a message properly. The Brownies are age 7-10, they know the difference and how to find out information, they do it all the time at school, Brownies, home etc. Adults tend not to have to be told.

 

[Gnarlie]

As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.

Not the point. The point is yes, you can get the information directly, but in ten years you would think that you might have been able to pick up the correct information from somewhere else if you had actually socially engaged with other club member on any real level during that time. Martial arts clubs tend not to be that big, and tend to be like a family, so if people there like you, they tend to want to help you...the information would normally come to you rather than you going to it...

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not the point. The point is yes, you can get the information directly, but in ten years you would think that you might have been able to pick up the correct information from somewhere else if you had actually socially engaged with other club member on any real level during that time. Martial arts clubs tend not to be that big, and tend to be like a family, so if people there like you, they tend to want to help you...the information would normally come to you rather than you going to it...

Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.

Not the point. The point is how, in ten years, could you NOT have found this out?

 

[Blindside]

PG, how many people passed you from brown to black during this 10 years?

 

[Chris Parker]

If I was to see a single clip I could make my own judgements on whether or not I considered it good. And I would base that on how it matches up to all the numerous other demonstrations I've seen of martial arts performances both in my own dojo and many other dojos that I've visited. Even if I don't take classes at a dojo I sometimes will visit and observe the students perform, particularly the higher ranking students. I would also use my own knowledge and experience in the martial arts to determine if I thought the clip was good or not, how well the techniques were done, how good the form was, ect.

Okay, let's try this another way… in the following clip, is it good, bad, or something else? And why?

We may then try with other clips.

I want to point out, though, that I'm not trying to "out" you… I'm trying to get a gauge on your perspective. So don't worry about how you'll be seen for your honest assessment.

If somebody who wants to advance has been at a rank for longer than the usual length of time I see two reasons why they're not advancing, either they're not working hard enough or they're not doing it right. All the hard work in the world won't do you any good if you're not doing it right. You will only get better at doing it the wrong way.

Again, though, there is the third reason that, frankly, they're not good enough (skilled enough, insightful enough, whatever) to move up in rank. You can have people put in all the effort in the world, but some levels of skill are just beyond some people… and, much though a "feel good" ideology might dislike that, it's just reality.

So what you're saying is theres more to it than that, that some people just don't have the potential to reach certain ranks or levels and that no matter how hard they work or how much they try to do it right they will never go beyond their potential I take it?

Yep.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Then again, its practically impossible to know every little detail about somebody based on messages they post on a board.

No, but it is possible to see a lot more than you think you're showing…

Some posters but not all. Some people have said its disrespectful to ask such stuff and that you should just, as its said many times before, shut up and train. Shutting up is good when you actually are training but there are also proper times to ask questions, such as before and after class.

And you've misunderstood each and every time it's been said. The idea of "shut up and train" is that that's where you find your answers… it's in line with your idea that, if you work hard enough, you'll get there. The "shut up and train" meme is in response to people who would tend to talk about training, then complain that they're not getting anywhere, rather than actually put aside their own thoughts and put in the work.

Yes, there are times to ask… and there are different ways to ask. But the main thrust has been that, if you're not getting where you need to be, and are going on and on about it, perhaps you're not putting the effort in where you should, and are instead wasting time intellectualising what should be discovered with sweat.

To know why you failed you might have to talk to your sensei, including asking your sensei why you haven't been told you could test yet.

If that's the way it's done in that particular school, maybe. But, honestly, this is a hypothetical based in your (likely) misunderstanding of the running of your own school, and is not the reality for many at all.

Well put it this way, I don't take it personally about what people say on the board. After all they don't know me from Adam and I don't know them from Adam so it would be silly to take what they say personally.

It's not about taking it personally, it's about hearing what's being said in the first place. And "taking with a grain of salt" is nothing to do with "taking it personally" either… you're mixing your metaphors.

This is just an observation but you sure appear to prefer a very structured conversation, at least on the boards you do.

I prefer things to be relevant to the discussion, yeah. Sorry if logic and basic conversation structure eludes you.

Well you sure are very critical.

I'm old and grumpy, is what I am. I've been at this too long to be anything but.

Well lets face it, its absurd to take close to ten years to go up just one rank, isn't it?

Depends on the rank, and the person, really.

 

[PhotonGuy]

PHOTONGUY SAID: ↑
Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.

Not the point. The point is how, in ten years, could you NOT have found this out?

Because I didn't ask the head instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

PG, how many people passed you from brown to black during this 10 years?

A few.

 

[Gnarlie]

Because I didn't ask the head instructor.

Do you actually properly read what anyone here posts?