Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Flying Crane]

Did someone say that hook punch exist in the WC system? How can you train hook punch without training the back fist?

you are saying this as if it is some kind of a law. It isn’t. It is an option. Nothing more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

you are saying this as if it is some kind of a law. It isn’t. It is an option. Nothing more.

When you throw a left hook punch, your opponent rotates his right arm to avoid contact, and throw a right hook punch back at your head, what will you do?

If you train "left hook, left back fist" combo, you can avoid this from happening.

 

[Flying Crane]

When you throw a left hook punch, your opponent rotates his right arm to avoid contact, and throw a right hook punch back at your head, what will you do?

Any of a number of things are possible. Backfist is not mandatory.

From reading your posts over several years, I believe you see things as rules and absolutes. I don’t understand that. I see them as possibilities among many, with guiding principles.

I think the way you see it can be very limiting. The way I see it can be very liberating.

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

Any of a number of things are possible. Backfist is not mandatory.

From reading your posts over several years, I believe you see things as rules and absolutes. I don’t understand that. I see them as possibilities among many, with guiding principles.

I think the way you see it can be very limiting. The way I see it can be very liberating.

When your opponent dodges under your hook, you change your hook into a back fist and hit on top of his head is a nature 1,2 combo.

In MA, there are something that just com in as nature pair.

 

[Flying Crane]

When your opponent dodges under your hook, you change your hook into a back fist and hit on top of his head is a nature 1,2 combo.

In MA, there are something that just com in as nature pair.

Yes it CAN be. It is one option among many. If you like it, use it. I am not disputing that. But you tend to express things as absolutes. They are not absolutes. They are options and possibilities.

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

But you tend to express things as absolutes. They are not absolutes. They are options and possibilities.

Did I ever use the word "absolute"?

Do you have to throw a back fist after you have thrown a hook? Of course you don't have to. You can throw hook, uppercut combo as well if your hook can obtain a head lock.

 

[Flying Crane]

Did I ever use the word "absolute"?

Do you have to throw a back fist after you have thrown a hook? Of course you don't have to. You can throw hook, uppercut combo as well if your hook can obtain a head lock.

Of course you did not use the word absolute. But you did say, “how can you train hook punch without training the back fist?” That implies you feel it is mandatory, that the two must go together.

maybe you do not intend to express in absolutes, so my apology if I am interpreting what you say incorrectly. But I often read an expressed absolute in what you write.

 

[geezer]

I assume OP also wanted to discuss... Did someone say that hook punch exist in the WC system? How can you train hook punch without training the back fist?

In my WC, coming out of the "WT" lineage, there is both a both hook and a backfist ...even if my old sifu didn't lay it out that way.

Here's where I get the hook and backfist from in the forms within the traditional system:

1. The Chum Kiu pivoting "Hacking Elbows" (Lan Sau) can be interpreted as both hook and backfist as well as elbow strikes (see 2:26-2:30 and again at 2:50-2:54 in the clip below):

a. Hook: If you can hit them with a lan sau (when turning towards your opponent) you can use the same structure and energy while closing your fist and hit them with a hook punch. And, you can open your elbow angle beyond 90° as needed to get more range.

b. Backfist: Usually WC uses a Fak-Sau instead of a backfist, especially when targeting the neck or throat, but in most applications, you can close the open-handed fak-sau into a fist, and voila, you have a very functional backfist ...perhaps more functional (and safer) when wearing gloves and sparring. In the pivoting Lan-Sau sequence in Chum-Kiu, the back fist would be an extension of the pivot away from your opponent. If your elbow misses, your unwinding fak-sau or fist will do the job.

2. Chum Kiu and Biu Tze pivoting Fak-Sau movements: The following pivoting fak sau sequences in Chum Kiu and Biu Tze are additional examples of movements that can be applied as backfists (see 3:08-3:10 in Chum Kiu section of the clip below, and again at 5:45-5:55 in the Biu Tze section in the same clip):

3. Biu Tze Double arm-grapple, hook punch, dropping-elbow, and throat-strike sequence: Note the hook punch when pivoting back to center after the arm grapple. This is followed by a dropping elbow (chik-lok jarn) and an open palm throat strike. The elbow dropping movement also can be translated as a downward vertical backfist, expressing the same relationship between a backward elbow strike and backfist as noted before (see 5:55 to 6:05 in the clip below).

Old footage of Chum Kiu and Biu Tze in the "WT" lineage:

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

When your opponent dodges under your hook, you change your hook into a back fist and hit on top of his head is a nature 1,2 combo.

In MA, there are something that just com in as nature pair.

Missing with a hand and reversing it to strike in the opposite direction doesn't seem like a fast or powerful counter, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what you're suggesting.

 

[Dirty Dog3]

Missing with a hand and reversing it to strike in the opposite direction doesn't seem like a fast or powerful counter, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what you're suggesting.

It's not. But then again, the backfist is generally not a particularly powerful strike. But it could be argued that it's better than none, and even a lighter impact can be used to setup a more powerful attack.

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

It's not. But then again, the backfist is generally not a particularly powerful strike. But it could be argued that it's better than none, and even a lighter impact can be used to setup a more powerful attack.

That I could see. I was reading John's posts as putting it forth as a best-practice response when a hook doesn't connect. For me, if a hook doesn't connect, I'm probably both faster and more powerful following up with the other hand.

 

[Dirty Dog3]

That I could see. I was reading John's posts as putting it forth as a best-practice response when a hook doesn't connect. For me, if a hook doesn't connect, I'm probably both faster and more powerful following up with the other hand.

Would your other hand be faster and more powerful because you practice it more? Or do you practice it more because it's faster and more powerful?

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

That I could see. I was reading John's posts as putting it forth as a best-practice response when a hook doesn't connect. For me, if a hook doesn't connect, I'm probably both faster and more powerful following up with the other hand.

When your opponent dodges under your right hook, his head is moving to your right. Your right arm is jamming your own left arm, your left hand may not be able to reach to his head.

You can use

- right elbow strike,
- right reverse hook,
- right reverse head lock,
- right back fist,

as your next move.

 

[Flying Crane]

Missing with a hand and reversing it to strike in the opposite direction doesn't seem like a fast or powerful counter, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what you're suggesting.

Interestingly, I found myself using such a combo in my heavy bag session today. I don’t see the hook as a “miss”, but rather as a strike to the inside of his elbow as he tries to strike me. From there, I roll it into the backfist. I am able to get a surprisingly good deal of power in it, at least in my opinion.

I think that by landing the first hook, that changes the mechanics a bit from if it missed. Makes it easier to hit harder with the backfist. But it needs to be done with body connection.

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

Would your other hand be faster and more powerful because you practice it more? Or do you practice it more because it's faster and more powerful?

It would be faster and more powerful because it’s the other hand. Wouldn’t matter which the first hand was, a follow up with the other would be faster and more powerful than stopping and reversing the first.

 

[Dirty Dog3]

It would be faster and more powerful because it’s the other hand. Wouldn’t matter which the first hand was, a follow up with the other would be faster and more powerful than stopping and reversing the first.

You don't have to stop and reverse (although you can). You can loop it. Which may well be faster and stronger.

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

Interestingly, I found myself using such a combo in my heavy bag session today. I don’t see the hook as a “miss”, but rather as a strike to the inside of his elbow as he tries to strike me. From there, I roll it into the backfist. I am able to get a surprisingly good deal of power in it, at least in my opinion.

I think that by landing the first hook, that changes the mechanics a bit from if it missed. Makes it easier to hit harder with the backfist. But it needs to be done with body connection.

In a case like that - where the strike met its target- that is probably as effective.

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

You don't have to stop and reverse (although you can). You can loop it. Which may well be faster and stronger.

I’m not picturing that. Maybe it’s just a technique I don’t own. The change of direction for the arm would be slower for me than using the gathered body tension with the other arm.

 

[Flying Crane]

In a case like that - where the strike met its target- that is probably as effective.

As effective as it can be, you mean? When the hook lands on the first strike, It can rebound or bounce off, can change directions more quickly than if you need to stop it in mid air and change directions.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’m not picturing that. Maybe it’s just a technique I don’t own. The change of direction for the arm would be slower for me than using the gathered body tension with the other arm.

Push with the feet and legs to rotate the torso. Push one direction, then push the other. Body connection for both strikes. Good power that way, and probably a quicker direction change. If youve practiced it enough.