Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[wckf9214]

@Kung Fu Wang I should clarify that I'm talking about your "arm wrap" scenario.

I agree with you about the wrist grab. But it is not a prolonged event. I'm not grabbing to maintain; only to violently pull...

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

@Kung Fu Wang I should clarify that I'm talking about your "arm wrap" scenario.

I agree with you about the wrist grab. But it is not a prolonged event. I'm not grabbing to maintain; only to violently pull...

I assume you prefer to talk about the striking art. After you have obtained an arm wrap. whether you want to continue with your striking art, or switch into your grappling art, the option will be yours.

When your left arm wrap on your opponent's right arm, Whether you want to knock your opponent down by your 1st right punch, or 2nd right punch, it will all up to you. Whether you just want to violently pull (and release), it will still up to you.

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I just keep moving back, none of your technique will work on me." His comment had bothered me for a long time. I then realized that if my body can connect on my opponent's body, his backward movement will pull my body into him. Since that day, I seriously looked for that "connection".

I don't mind my opponent to move back. As long as his body and my body are connected, my technique will still work. If my left arm can wrap on his right arm, I can attack him with my right :

- palm strike.
- elbow strike.
- cross.
- hook
- uppercut.
- overhand.
- hammer fist.
- ...

The fight can end right there.

I want to create that head on collusion opportunity A + B > A.

 

[Callen]

One of my DTE Escrima coaches tried to get me to use an arm wrap like that. He said it was just like a strong, forward pressing tan sau. And when he did it it was effective.

But, it never worked well for me, especially in a Wing Chun context. I found that it worked against the "feel" or "energy" of the art.

Yeah, I can see how you could come to that conclusion. It's a tricky topic for sure. It requires serious thought, as opposed to just throwing an arm wrap into the mix because it would be cool to "use".

Adding things to the system in general is very situationally dependent and typically superfluous. To me though, the question is about how the addition benefits, compliments and reinforces the concepts of the system. Does it violate core principles, how is it developed within the context of the system, is it a supporting concept (of the system as a whole) or a single "technique"? Etc...

 

[drop bear104]

Do WC guys use arm wrap after Tan Shou?

By the way. You are giving up the underhook to do that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah, I can see how you could come to that conclusion. It's a tricky topic for sure. It requires serious thought, as opposed to just throwing an arm wrap into the mix because it would be cool to "use".

Adding things to the system in general is very situationally dependent and typically superfluous. To me though, the question is about how the addition benefits, compliments and reinforces the concepts of the system. Does it violate core principles, how is it developed within the context of the system, is it a supporting concept (of the system as a whole) or a single "technique"? Etc...

It is common for people to add things into a martial system. People seem to feel that they need to have “everything,” which is simply not possible. They look at what others are doing and think, “hey that works well for them, we should do it too.” What often gets overlooked or neglected is whether the added component might be incompatible with the structural foundation of the system. People often fail to consider what should NOT be added.

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

By the way. You are giving up the underhook to do that.

Under hook and over hook can be used to counter each other.

When you use

- over hook, I can use under hook to counter you.
- under hook, I can use over hook to counter you.

 

[drop bear104]

It is common for people to add things into a martial system. People seem to feel that they need to have “everything,” which is simply not possible. They look at what others are doing and think, “hey that works well for them, we should do it too.” What often gets overlooked or neglected is whether the added component might be incompatible with the structural foundation of the system. People often fail to consider what should NOT be added.

Doesn't matter. You just change your structure mid fight. Which should happen anyway.

 

[Martial D]

Under hook and over hook can be used to counter each other.

When you use

- over hook, I can use under hook to counter you.
- under hook, I can use over hook to counter you.

Only the underhook gives you control of the torso, especially if you get two of them. As a wrestler you must agree that is the superior position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang104]

Only the underhook gives you control of the torso, especially if you get two of them. As a wrestler you must agree that is the superior position.

This is the beauty of the underhook (or overhook). You just need 1 to control your opponent's whole body.

When you use overhook, if you put the back of your palm against your opponent's chest, you can crack on your opponent's elbow joint. It's the best counter to against your opponent's waist wrap.

 

[Argus]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't transition into an under/over hook from a position in Wing Chun.
But that is getting into grappling which is distinctly different from Wing Chun. I think, instead of trying to add that to Wing Chun, it's better to just learn each separately and transition between the two depending on the need/situation.
Of course, there are some locks and throws that are better suited to Wing Chun's structure as well, and those might be easily adopted. But my brief experience trying to learn some Judo throws (with a Judoka) quickly showed me that I needed to learn a lot more about judo's mechanics and structure to make them effective -- my Wing Chun training alone wasn't enough to make them work well. So, perhaps it's better to just learn the systems separately rather than to confuse yourself / your students, especially in the beginning, I think. Then you can transition freely.

 

[Ivan]

You are making a lot of blanket statements about wing Chun and those who practice it. On what do you base these statements?

On the reality behind a large portion of traditional martial arts. The fact is, that there are very little TMAs that train the way modern combat sports do. You could list Pankration as one as it involves a lot of sparring and pressure testing, but almost every traditional eastern asian martial art is devoid of any sparring. The culture behind sparring is very different - this is evidenced by how (instead of sparring) Karate practitioners would practice their techniques by getting into street fights - see number 1.

Next, we have the complexity of traditional martial arts compared to the more modern combat arts. How many techniques would you say there are in Boxing? Because I can certainly gurantee that it doesn't have as many as, say, Shorinji Kempo, which easily amasses over 200 techniques. After all, it's a hybrid martial art that includes striking, grappling, takedowns, clinching, numerous stances and breakfalls. When you compare these two martial arts in a no rule fight it'd be easy to say that Kempo comes out on top, right? But there's one caveat.

The majority of Shorinji Kempo practitioners don't spar - they use Randori. Do you understand the consequences of this? A boxer has to focus on less than 20 techniques and can polish them near infintely with sparring. Shorinji Kempo practioners not only have a wider variety of techniques (which is what makes their martial art more technical) but also can't pressure test them to the same extent. The same is the case many Wing Chun schools - stereotypes are created for a reason. Do you think it's a coincidence that all the Wing Chun masters in China are getting beaten up by MMA fighters with ease?

The fact is, Traditional Martial Arts take much longer time to learn and be used correctly. This is because of the extent of their techniques, and the lack of more modern and useful training methods. Don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist at heart. I love old school stuff. I love to believe that there is hidden wisdom in older methods and practices passed down by our ancestors. But sometimes, the practices we create have their own wisdom too.