Is there anyone called "General Choi" in WTF TKD???

[Gwai Lo Dan]

ITF schools talk a lot about General Choi. You walk into an ITF school, and there is a picture of him.

As far as I can tell, he was part of the foundation for TKD, including eventually WTF. Yet it is like he never existed as far as I have seen in WTF schools. Does anyone in WTF recognise his contributions? Is it difference of opinion as to his influence, or is it just politics?

 

[punisher73]

Politics.

If you really want a good read about the development of "TKD", reading "A Killing Art" by a guy named Gillis, it goes over all of it. the good, the bad and the ugly of the politics and how it developed.
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Art-U...&qid=1376435894&sr=8-1&keywords=a+killing+art

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

On your link, I saw the sentence, "In 1938, tae kwon do began at the end of a poker game in a tiny village in a remote corner of what is now North Korea by Choi Hong-Hi, who began the martial art, and his nemesis, Kim Un-Yong".

Since Dr. Kim has been the President of WTF since 1973, it would seem your one word answer of "Politics" is accurate. Thanks.

 

[andyjeffries]

ITF schools talk a lot about General Choi. You walk into an ITF school, and there is a picture of him.

As far as I can tell, he was part of the foundation for TKD, including eventually WTF. Yet it is like he never existed as far as I have seen in WTF schools. Does anyone in WTF recognise his contributions? Is it difference of opinion as to his influence, or is it just politics?

At the Kukkiwon Foreigner's Taekwondo Master Training Course I attended in July this year, his contribution was recognised in the lecture on Taekwondo history. The lecturer basically said that General Choi was a powerful man in the army so was able to promote Taekwondo very well, but he was a junior martial artist with "unproven" history in Karate and Taekkyeon. So they talked about him, just not in terms of the dramatic involvement that ITF Taekwon-doin would have liked.

 

[Cyriacus]

At the Kukkiwon Foreigner's Taekwondo Master Training Course I attended in July this year, his contribution was recognised in the lecture on Taekwondo history. The lecturer basically said that General Choi was a powerful man in the army so was able to promote Taekwondo very well, but he was a junior martial artist with "unproven" history in Karate and Taekkyeon. So they talked about him, just not in terms of the dramatic involvement that ITF Taekwon-doin would have liked.

Thats what makes doctrine fun, of course. Its a balancing act of how much you can shower your glorious leader with absolute praise without demonizing everyone else too much. Keeps people interested, doesnt make them feel like theyre being forced into taking sides in some bigger argument.
Like i said, fun

Case in point: How often is Kim mentioned at your (not you, specifically. this is a general question) ITF school, when and if they talk about history?

 

[Gnarlie]

Un Yong Kim hasn't been the president of the WTF for a long time now.

Choi gets more credit than he ought to, in my view. He deserves credit for his efforts with the ITF, but his contribution to the wider development of Taekwondo is on a comparable level with many other pioneers of the art at that time.

Also, I find Gillis' book to be a sensationalised account, and in places fictionalised. Its dramatic style does not encourage the reader to take a balanced view of the facts and evidence that remains. There are other, more reliable sources of information.

Gnarlie

 

[Earl Weiss]

The SK government did not want to repeat history when it developed the WTF and made the KKW it's sister org. By having the new TKD be a collaborative effort it minimized the contributions of any single individual, and should any one WTF KKW individual become persona non grata they would not have a huge following that would choose that person over the powers that be.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Choi gets more credit than he ought to, in my view. He deserves credit for his efforts with the ITF, but his contribution to the wider development of Taekwondo is on a comparable level with many other pioneers of the art at that time.


Gnarlie

Interesting. Please name 3 pioneers who came close to matching General Choi's efforts and results prior to 1974 with regard to the following:
1. Succesfuly and repeatedly Lobbied for unification under the name TKD despite vigorous objections by many.
2. Developed a single unified system called TKD
3. Recruited top talent and developed instructors for a new system to unfy anf\dteach the system on a wide scale.
4. Introduced TKD to numerous countries by dispatching demo teams of the newly minted instructors.
5. Dispatched and recruited instructors to many countries to teach and spread TKD.
6. For that matter, how many non Chang Hon instructors even used the name TKD before 1974?
7. Wrote books called TKD in 1959, and an english version in 1964. (Frankly I do not know who first published another "TKD" book prior to or after these dates. I will check my collection to see what I have.

Granted he was succesful due to resources at his disposal which others did not have.

I await enlightement.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ITF schools talk a lot about General Choi. You walk into an ITF school, and there is a picture of him.

As far as I can tell, he was part of the foundation for TKD, including eventually WTF. Yet it is like he never existed as far as I have seen in WTF schools. Does anyone in WTF recognise his contributions? Is it difference of opinion as to his influence, or is it just politics?

Well, given that the WTF (World Taekwondo Federation) regulates the sport of taekwondo, General Choi's influence is virtually non existent. Of course, I assume that you're actually talking about Kukki Taekwondo, which is maintained and developed by the Kukkiwon, not the WTF.

General Choi deserves a great deal of credit in the development of the art, so from an historical perspective, he is very important. On the other hand, he started the ITF and developed Chang Hon taekwondo roughly fifty years ago, so as the head of a different organization, would you really expect to see him pictured in KKW schools? Henry Ford was pivotol to the US automotive industry, but his portrait isn't prominently displayed in Chevrolet dealerships.

And I would like to ask you a counter question: to whom was his prominence given in KKW schools? The answer should be nobody. KKW taekwondo has no single founder or prime mover. Different organizational structure, different direction. Chang Hon TKD is as different from KKW TKD as Shotokan karate is. They are different systems. They are both very good systems, but they are different systems.

 

[Gnarlie]

I await enlightement.

Don't we all.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Un Yong Kim hasn't been the president of the WTF for a long time now.

Thanks. I had googled his name and saw on the following link, "Dr Un Yong Kim, has been the President of the World TaeKwonDo Federation since its formation in 1973." I guess the webpage is old.
http://sataekwondo.8m.com/unyongkim.htm

 

[Jaeimseu]

At the Kukkiwon Foreigner's Taekwondo Master Training Course I attended in July this year, his contribution was recognised in the lecture on Taekwondo history. The lecturer basically said that General Choi was a powerful man in the army so was able to promote Taekwondo very well, but he was a junior martial artist with "unproven" history in Karate and Taekkyeon. So they talked about him, just not in terms of the dramatic involvement that ITF Taekwon-doin would have liked.

I'll second what Andy said here. The Kukkiwon instructor said something along the lines of Gen. Choi coming onto the scene after the original 5 kwans with good connections with the military and Pres. Rhee Syngman. He actually said that he respected General Choi and some of what he did, but that it was a complicated situation due to the "unclear" martial arts experience and his activities involving North Korea.

It's easy to type "just politics," but the relationship between N and S Korea isn't "just" anything. North Korean websites are still blocked in South Korea. It's still a big deal to be involved with N Korea.




Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

North Korean websites are still blocked in South Korea.

I had not heard that. I thought it was only North Korea filtering information available to its residents.

 

[Manny]

ITF schools talk a lot about General Choi. You walk into an ITF school, and there is a picture of him.

As far as I can tell, he was part of the foundation for TKD, including eventually WTF. Yet it is like he never existed as far as I have seen in WTF schools. Does anyone in WTF recognise his contributions? Is it difference of opinion as to his influence, or is it just politics?

In my city and I guess in my country you will note find a pic of Gen.Choi in WTF/KUKIWON dojangs, it seeems Gen Choi was a not good person to TKD and in some cases old sambunims say he was a traitor to South Korea.

If I had a dojang I will have a memory/honor wall where a pic or drawinf of Gen.Choi will part amoung others great masters.

Manny

 

[Balrog]

Regardless of the style, we would not be practicing Taekwondo today if it weren't for General Choi's efforts.

 

[Gorilla]

Just a man not a Demi-God

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regardless of the style, we would not be practicing Taekwondo today if it weren't for General Choi's efforts.

While I'm sure that there are people who might debate that, I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

[andyjeffries]

Regardless of the style, we would not be practicing Taekwondo today if it weren't for General Choi's efforts.

We would, we'd just be calling it Taesoodo or something else. The name wouldn't matter, we'd still be doing the same thing...

 

[Earl Weiss]

We would, we'd just be calling it Taesoodo or something else. The name wouldn't matter, we'd still be doing the same thing...

Doubtful. More likely some Okinawan, Japanese or Chinese art (no Korean connection needed) which already had a strong foothold throughout the world. Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba all standardized and synthesized prior systems so that they could be taught to the masses before General Choi did it. Yet they did not enjoy the success of TKD. There is only one reason for this. General Choi recruited existing talent both inside and ouside Korea, (much more efficient than starting with only beginners) had them adopt the new name and system, developed instructors, dispatched them throughout the workd to demonstrate using the best athletes whose athletic performance would impress spectators, and dispatched instructors throughout the world to teach.

Remembering now that this was from the 1950's to early 1970's when travel was a lot harder than now for both the demosntrators, students and spectators, it is remarkeable that in such a short time I think (I will have to check the numbers) this new MA was established in 65 countries before SK reinvented it with the WTF / Kukki arrangement.

Taking a page from General Choi's book the SK government recruited existing Chang Hon instructors and develped and dispatched more. They improved on the strategy by initialy accepting all systems under their umbrella, and some 30 years later seeming to move to a single system for the MA vis a vis patterns and technical parameters. Sure, lots more people and countries now, but th world is a lot smaller due to improvements in travel and communications.

 

[oftheherd1]

Doubtful. More likely some Okinawan, Japanese or Chinese art ...
...

Taking a page from General Choi's book the SK government recruited existing Chang Hon instructors and develped and dispatched more. They improved on the strategy by initialy accepting all systems under their umbrella, and some 30 years later seeming to move to a single system for the MA vis a vis patterns and technical parameters. Sure, lots more people and countries now, but th world is a lot smaller due to improvements in travel and communications.

To my knowledge and experience, Karate got the first foot hold due to their occupation after WWII. But the same thing then happened with TKD due to our involvement with S. Korea, and the stationing of troops there.

My understanding was not that they "accepted" other arts, but that other arts were strong armed into joining. Tang Soo Do and Hapkido were the holdouts.