Break down the difference between ITF and WTF TKD for me. . .

puunui

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WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.

The Kukkiwon has a flag as well, which they will give you for free if you register your school with them through the KMS program.
 

Twin Fist

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I'm not actually opposed to this but Judoka do the same thing, competitive Karate fighters do the same thing, BJJ players do it, "it" being neglecting everything outside of the sport ruleset. Why should a Taekwondo fighter be different?

it shouldnt be limited to TKD, as far as I am concerned, anyone that doesnt learn the ART side isnt a martial artist. I may be a jerk, but i am jerk equally in every direction!!
 
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WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.

Are they actually two separate entities though? Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.
 

puunui

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Are they actually two separate entities though? Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.

Yes, they are completely separate entities, with completely separate functions within the world of taekwondo.
 

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Are they actually two separate entities though? Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.

They are separate but related entities, and, given how much overlap there is between the two, the relationship might be described as incestuous. Whether than overlap is good or bad is a subject for a different thread, I think.
 

ETinCYQX

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Mastercole and Puunui-

My sincere apologies for my incorrect statement on the Lopez family. I promise I meant no offense and used them as an example of elite competitive Taekwondoin. I only thought I remembered reading a statement from a member here that Steven had remarked he didn't know the Taeguek poomsae. Obviously I was mistaken. I hope no offense was taken.

Ethan
 

ETinCYQX

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it shouldnt be limited to TKD, as far as I am concerned, anyone that doesnt learn the ART side isnt a martial artist. I may be a jerk, but i am jerk equally in every direction!!

Not convinced you're wrong, just looking at parallels.
 

mastercole

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I know prior to and during the construction of the Kukkiwon, the building was referred to as the "Danhan Taekwondo Hyophwe Choongang Dojang" which as you say was translated into "KTA Central Gymnasium". But I always thought that by the time the building actually opened, the name Kukkiwon had been decided upon. Perhaps it was a mistake to make that assumption. I tried to look up the answer in the old Taekwondo Gyegan magazines (the KTA magazine started by Dr. Un Yong Kim) and the closest I could find was in the March 1973 issue where they refer to the building as "Kukkiwon". Flipping through the old magazines, I found some interesting articles on taekkyon, specifically baekjae taekkyon, as well as an article on GM SON Dukki. I'll try and scan it can email it to you so you can have it translated. Probably some good information in there for your continuing taekkyon research. Also amazing all the people visiting the Kukkiwon back in those days, people like GM NAM Tae Hi, GM SON Duk Sung, etc.

I took a photo of the metal placard they place on the lower corner of the Kukkiwon building when it was completed. It does not say Kukkiwon, I think it calls it the KTA central gym, I'll e-mail it to you. Please send the Taekkyon scans, hopefully I can have it translated asap. Thanks!
 

mastercole

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Are they actually two separate entities though? Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.

They are completely separate organizations, with different officers, different functions, and located about 10 miles apart it Seoul.

The Kukkiwon DID NOT create the WTF. The WTF was created by Team leaders from about 18 different nations, Korea being just one of those nations. Here in the USA, GM Edward Sell, of Florida was one of those 18. He signed the formation document that created the WTF.
 

mastercole

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They are separate but related entities, and, given how much overlap there is between the two, the relationship might be described as incestuous. Whether than overlap is good or bad is a subject for a different thread, I think.

Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.
 

puunui

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The WTF was created by Team leaders from about 18 different nations, Korea being just one of those nations. Here in the USA, GM Edward Sell, of Florida was one of those 18. He signed the formation document that created the WTF.


There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.
 

puunui

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Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.

Also WTF requires Kukkiwon poom or dan certification for competitors and referees. Not so much for coaches.
 

Dirty Dog

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Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.

Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head. ;)
 

mastercole

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There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.

Right, the other American is GM Jack Hwang of Oklahoma. I don't think GM Chun signed it.
 

mastercole

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Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head. ;)

I know Dr. Un Yong Kim. I have also meet the current WTF President, Chung Won Choe, and the current Kukkiwon President, GM Won Shik Kang. I've met a lot of knowledgeable Taekwondo people, and they all disagree with you.

As a matter of fact, Dr. Kim told me personally that Kukkiwon was the center of Taekwondo knowledge, research and learning, and that Kukkiwon sets the standard for what is and what is not Taekwondo. He also told me that the WTF was a separate organization which concerned itself with the successful operations of national and international competitions. He said that Kukkiwon can not interfere in the business of the WTF, and visa versa because the WTF is governed by the rules and regulations of the IOC, not by the rules and regulations of the Kukkiwon which is governed by the rules and regulations of the Korean Government.

If you disagree with Dr. Kim, please, explain exactly, in detail, as you stated that you have knowledge of how the WTF and Kukkiwon overlap instead of make vague statements.
 

mastercole

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I took a photo of the metal placard they place on the lower corner of the Kukkiwon building when it was completed. It does not say Kukkiwon, I think it calls it the KTA central gym, I'll e-mail it to you. Please send the Taekkyon scans, hopefully I can have it translated asap. Thanks!

Here is the photo of the foundation placard attached to the Kukkiwon. The center states "Joong ahng do jang" or Central Gymnasium. The bottom line states: Dan Han Taekwondo Hyop Hae Jang Kim Un Yong, or Korea Taekwondo Association President, KIM Un Yong.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/5837907498/in/pool-1667737@N25
 
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So I went and took my freebie lesson tonight. I will be the first to admit that I'm not in top condition and by the end of class I thought I was going to pass out. It was basically one long conditioning drill, capped off by a sprint-jog-sprint exercise that pretty much made me want to die. I was told I actually did well . . . that many guys actually throw up on their first day . . . but I felt pretty beat up by the time it was over.

The real question is whether I want to jump into these waters. I feel like to REALLY get a grasp of a martial art I'll need to do 3 classes a week in addition to any solo training. Since I'm doing wado also, that would mean 6 days of training.

Decisions . . . decisions . . .
 

mastercole

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So I went and took my freebie lesson tonight. I will be the first to admit that I'm not in top condition and by the end of class I thought I was going to pass out. It was basically one long conditioning drill, capped off by a sprint-jog-sprint exercise that pretty much made me want to die. I was told I actually did well . . . that many guys actually throw up on their first day . . . but I felt pretty beat up by the time it was over.

The real question is whether I want to jump into these waters. I feel like to REALLY get a grasp of a martial art I'll need to do 3 classes a week in addition to any solo training. Since I'm doing wado also, that would mean 6 days of training.

Decisions . . . decisions . . .

I don't know what your time is like or what your age is, but if you are young and the doctor says you can handle it, 6 days a week is good, and multiple times a day, 6 days a week is very good. I have students who train 2 hours in the morning, afternoon and evening, 6 days a week. That is over 36 hours per week. They keep very true to that, though they might miss a 2 hour session here and there due to college homework, some unavoidable responsibility, injury or rare illness. It sounds like this school wants it's students to be conditioned well, in preparation for hard, very hard training.
 
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I don't know what your time is like or what your age is, but if you are young and the doctor says you can handle it, 6 days a week is good.

I'm 30 and can make the time. I do with the classes weren't almost all at night, though. I'm the kind of guy that likes to get my business done in the day and be settled in at home by 7:00 PM.

I'm not overly concerned about an inability to do it in the sense that it might be a danger to my health. I'm not in great condition, but I'm not overweight (I'm 5'6", 150 lbs.) or hindered by any life-threatening disability. I've also had an on-again, off-again love affair with weight training over the past couple of years, and I don't have a car so I do a lot of walking on most days. So I am not inactive or overly sedentary, but high-intensity cardio has always been one of the banes of my existence, so I have to say that tonight was the best cardio workout I've had in years. If it gets any more serious than what went down tonight it will probably take me some time to ramp up to the performance level of everyone else in the class.

I have students who train 2 hours in the morning, afternoon and evening, 6 days a week. That is over 36 hours per week. They keep very true to that, though they might miss a 2 hour session here and there due to college homework, some unavoidable responsibility, injury or rare illness.

Wow, that's like a full-time job. That's crazy. No social lives, I presume.

It sounds like this school wants it's students to be conditioned well, in preparation for hard, very hard training.

Yeah, that's my impression. Apparently Saturdays during the spring/summer/fall are much worse. I was told it starts off with sprints at the track and then back to the dojang for more conditioning and then sparring.
 

mastercole

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I'm 30 and can make the time. I do with the classes weren't almost all at night, though. I'm the kind of guy that likes to get my business done in the day and be settled in at home by 7:00 PM.

I'm not overly concerned about an inability to do it in the sense that it might be a danger to my health. I'm not in great condition, but I'm not overweight (I'm 5'6", 150 lbs.) or hindered by any life-threatening disability. I've also had an on-again, off-again love affair with weight training over the past couple of years, and I don't have a car so I do a lot of walking on most days. So I am not inactive or overly sedentary, but high-intensity cardio has always been one of the banes of my existence, so I have to say that tonight was the best cardio workout I've had in years. If it gets any more serious than what went down tonight it will probably take me some time to ramp up to the performance level of everyone else in the class.

I don't state that I endorse this book, but I do know that our students who train this intense make weights a part of their training. They really like this guide. http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738

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Wow, that's like a full-time job. That's crazy. No social lives, I presume.

They are their own social group and basically do most things together when they are not training or in school. If you can get into a group like that it will transform everything.

Yeah, that's my impression. Apparently Saturdays during the spring/summer/fall are much worse. I was told it starts off with sprints at the track and then back to the dojang for more conditioning and then sparring.

Excellent. Our people do a solid series of track methods. Various timed sprints, timed runs, bleachers stairs, stretching, etc.
 
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