is general Choi mentioned?

[chrismay101]

Im part of an ITF org. and we learn almost first thing that General Choi founded TKD in 1955 and so on. Got couple of genral martial art books with TKD in but it WTF style and during the intro it mentions the silla dynasty and other things but does not mention Gen. Choi.
So I wondered if he is ever mentioned in WTF at any point?

and if he isn't because he is ITF and he was made to leave Korea maybe and its a big maybe if it wasn't for him we may never have had any type of TKD ITF or WTF.
it may have ended up with somthing else?
just a question because I don't know much about WTF so please put me straight. Cheers

 

[terryl965]

General Choi is consider the founding father of modern day TKD. It was his doing that brought all the kwans together in the first place before he was ousred by the Korean Government.

So I do both ITF, WTF and TSD and I have always consider him the Founding Father of Modern TKD.

 

[chrismay101]

Thanks for the reply.

 

[WMKS Shogun]

Some schools mention Gen. Choi, some do not. It all depends on the spin given it. Some schools want to refer to Taekkyon as the birth of Tae Kwon Do, others refer to Gen. Choi. Doug Cook, a WTF/Kukkiwon stylist discusses both the Taekkyon roots as well as Gen. Choi's contributions to what is today, Tae Kwon Do.

 

[YoungMan]

The Kukkiwon/WTF version of Tae Kwon Do talks about the historical basis of the art, the Japanese occupation, the philosophical basis of TKD, the non-Korean influences of Tae Kwon Do, and the spreading of TKD around the world. Gen. Choi is not mentioned by name because the Koreans do not consider him the founder.
At the most, he is considered one of the original promoters of Tae Kwon Do.
I consider him one of the pioneers, but not the founder. Even calling him the person who named it "Tae Kwon Do" is a stretch.
I personally consider Won Kuk Lee to be the closest thing to the Founder of Tae Kwon Do, especially since Oh Do Kwan would never have existed without him. Lee's Chung Do Kwan is where Choi got most of his top students.

 

[Klondike93]

The story I was always told was the WTF was formed by some ITF black belts that resented the General going to North Korea to introduce the ITF there.

 

[dancingalone]

One thing this forum has taught me is that not everyone involved in TKD regards General Choi as the number one guy in the TKD pantheon. The recent Kim Soo article in Black Belt magazine was interesting...

 

[YoungMan]

That would be correct. I think Kim Soo touches on some things, but neglects many others. The WTF arose out of the KTA, which arose out of the Korean national tournaments, which arose out of the Kwans trying to sublimate the streetfighting between schools into something more useful and less dangerous.

 

[SageGhost83]

I personally consider Won Kuk Lee to be the closest thing to the Founder of Tae Kwon Do

That is what I was taught, as well. General Choi wasn't the founder of Taekwondo, but he played a major role in the formulation of modern TKD. He helped spread the art to the entire world, thus he should be mentioned in some capacity in every TKD org as a show of respect. I like to say that he is the Funakoshi Gichin of TKD - didn't create it exclusively, but was a key figure in its formulation...Okay, maybe not quite Funakoshi-esque, but you get my point :wink1:.

 

[dancingalone]

Certainly some of General Choi's actions in his later life, particularly the visit to North Korea, made him a pariah in many circles. My first martial art was ITF-derived tae kwon do in the hinterlands of Texas. Imagine my surprise as a patriotic teenager to discover that I was learning the "communist" style.

 

[foot2face]

Imagine my surprise as a patriotic teenager to discover that I was learning the "communist" style.

That's funny you said that. A few of the BBs at my school used to refer to the ITF as "Commie TKD".:lol:

 

[IcemanSK]

That's funny you said that. A few of the BBs at my school used to refer to the ITF as "Commie TKD".:lol:

We joked about that when was in an ITF-style school as well.

 

[Kacey]

Certainly some of General Choi's actions in his later life, particularly the visit to North Korea, made him a pariah in many circles. My first martial art was ITF-derived tae kwon do in the hinterlands of Texas. Imagine my surprise as a patriotic teenager to discover that I was learning the "communist" style.

Gen. Choi was born in Korea when there was no North or South - only a single country. His return to Korea was not political - he was dying of cancer, and wanted to be buried in the area in which he was born. That this desire led, in part, to the split of the ITF (he purportedly willed the ITF to a North Korean on his deathbed - a good trick with a supposedly democratic organization that he was president, not owner, of) is sad, but under the circumstances, understandable.

 

[YoungMan]

I think the sensible thing to do would have been to request that his remains be interred in Korea when it was unified. Having his remains interred in North Korea, I think, just served to confirm many people's suspicions about him.

 

[Kacey]

I think the sensible thing to do would have been to request that his remains be interred in Korea when it was unified. Having his remains interred in North Korea, I think, just served to confirm many people's suspicions about him.

The man was old, sick, and dying; he died a slow, lingering death of stomach cancer. He had been unable to return to his birthplace for decades. He made the decision that he deemed best for himself. Requests for reinterrment at an unknown - perhaps never to occur - time in the future is very altruistic, but not much comfort when one is dying. Was it the decision that was in the best interest of the art, or of peoples' opinion of him? Perhaps not - even probably not. But there comes a point in a person's life where a person is allowed to be selfish - and I think this was the point in his life where selfishness can be understood.

To allow a decision made at such a time to color your opinion of a person's entire life shows a lack of understanding of the bigger picture. Suspicions are just that - suspicions. Was the action suspicious? If you choose to interpret it that way, yes. I choose to interpret it as an old, tired, sick man wanting to go home, doing whatever he had to do to face the inevitable in a place that gave him comfort (even though that choice had consequences that are on-going in the ITF), and not use that one choice as a lens with which to view his entire life.

 

[Klondike93]

That this desire led, in part, to the split of the ITF

It's current split of which there are now 3 ITF organizations and yes one is led by a North Korean. The original split that formed the WTF was caused some time in the 60's by Choi sending some of his instructors to North Korea. Before his death there were numerous attempts to bring the ITF and the WTF back together but egos and politics will never let that happen.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It's current split of which there are now 3 ITF organizations and yes one is led by a North Korean. The original split that formed the WTF was caused some time in the 60's by Choi sending some of his instructors to North Korea.

This is not quite accurate. Gen. Choi didn't send any instructors to North Korea until 1980/81. He first led a demonstration team there and then sent then-Master Park Jung Tae to teach a special instructors course, which lasted several months. Part of the reason Gen. Choi went to the DPRK was because many of his original Korean instructors had left to join the WTF. Ironically, his going to North Korea caused several others to leave, too.

The WTF was formed in 1973, shortly after Gen. Choi went into self-imposed exile in Canada. He left South Korea because of the political situation in the country which was far from open and democratic and was exacerbated in his personal life because of his relationship with President Park, Chung Hee, who had led a military coup to come to power (Gen. Choi had at one point been on the military tribunal which Court Martial then-General Park and, I believe, sentenced him to death).

Anyway, even before the formation of the WTF in the 1970's Taekwon-Do wasn't totally unified despite the efforts of Gen. Choi and others in the 1950's and 60's.

Pax,

Chris

 

[tkd1964]

I concider Gen. Choi as the founder of Taekwon-Do for the following reasons:
1. He called the naming commity to give the name to the art. Some say GM Son slipped a note to Gen. Choi with the name on it. This would have to be false since not only did Gen. Choi submit the name but stood before the commity and defined it in detail. He would not have been able to do that if he was just passed a note.
2. He came up with the techniques ( refined from the Karate techniques) and philosophy of taekwon-Do. Although the kwan leaders use the name Taekwon-Do the techniques are still that of the Tang Soo Do they where teaching.
3. In 1961, The new KTA voted to change the name to Tae Soo Do. It wasn't until 1965 that Gen. Choi came back from Malaysia and was able to change the name back to Taekwon-Do. The leaders of the KTA only saw it as a name but Gen. Choi saw it as an Art. I wish he would have let them have their Tae Soo Do and wewouldn't be having this discussion.

The Taekwon-Do, as being taught by the ITF and others, is the Taekwon-Do founded by Gen. Choi Hong Hi. The Taekwondo as practiced by the WTF, are still the techniques of Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, etc aside from the updating the kicks.

Mike

 

[SageGhost83]

The Taekwon-Do, as being taught by the ITF and others, is the Taekwon-Do founded by Gen. Choi Hong Hi. The Taekwondo as practiced by the WTF, are still the techniques of Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, etc aside from the updating the kicks.

Mike

Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are composed of the chinese characters for empty hand way; which are the same characters used for Karate.They are interchangeable because they are both the korean way for saying "karate". General Choi was a student of Gichin Funakoshi, and he was taught Japanese Shotokan Karate. His ITF Chang Hon style is very close to shotokan, as a matter of fact, calling it Korean Shotokan wouldn't be that far off of the mark. What does this all mean? The Taekwondo that comes from General Choi Hong Hi came from Japanese shotokan karate because that is what General Choi was trained in and that was his base. He even used the original shotokan kata back then. Therefore, it is karate. If the Taekwondo that is practiced by the WTF are still the techniques of Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do, then it is still basically the same thing because it too is karate. They are *all* Karate to begin with, you see? It is all the same thing, just different focus. The kicks were originally low line for all of them, however, they begin to rise over time for competition and demo purposes. Choi should be credited with coming up with the name, but he didn't create the actual style all by himself. It was a group effort. Many people came together to create our style, not just one man. Many people in Korea were practicing the style before it was called "Taekwondo", so how could he be the founder of the actual style itself? It is better to say that he was one of Taekwondo's founding fathers, and perhaps its greatest ambassador, but not its single founder.

 

[YoungMan]

Not quite correct. Gen. Choi was a student of Shotokan, although to say he was a student of Funakoshi is a stretch. He never claimed Funakoshi as an Instructor, just that he studied Shotokan. Even then, saying that he officially studied Shotokan under a JKA-certified Instructor is debatable.
He did work closely with Chung Do Kwan Founder Won Kuk Lee, who did study under Funakoshi. Lee also claimed Choi as a student of his, even if Choi never admitted it. Choi's respect for Lee and his students was so great that only Chung Do Kwan black belts were allowed to keep their rank once in the Army as is.
My own take is that Choi's teaching was a combination of the Shotokan (official or otherwise) he learned plus the Tang Soo Do he learned under Won Kuk Lee.
Ironically, much of what we call "Tae Kwon Do" came from Won Kuk Lee, even if many (especially those in the ITF) don't want to admit it. What they claim as coming from Gen. Choi actually came from GGM Lee.
Then again, Gen. Choi was notorious was distorting facts to suit his own ends.