WTF clubs that credits General Choi as founder and/or developer of TaeKwonDo

[Axiom]

A Swedish Taekwondo club writes the following (excerpts):

"We train WTF TaeKwondo..."

"Taekwondo is a Korean art of self defence founded over 2000 years ago and developed by General Choi"

Chae Taekwondo Malmö

General Choi had nothing to do with the Taeguk forms these people practise.... How common is it that TKD styles he had nothing to do with still credits him?

 

[andyjeffries]

Very rare I'd say.

Most Kukkiwon/WTF/WT/Kwan dojangs are more integration focused and credit a group of people for coming together, putting aside differences and forming a unified martial art.

However, I guess some instructors have read somewhere that he was the founder, see that as fact and like to credit him. While dan rank isn't everything the head instructor of that dojang is only a 4th Dan, so maybe he hasn't read up as much on history as others have. Or maybe he has and still believes in the Choi propaganda that he was the founder. Who knows...

 

[Tez3]

Who knows...

who cares? Most people are too busy training to worry what others do, think or believe.

 

[Axiom]

Very rare I'd say.

Most Kukkiwon/WTF/WT/Kwan dojangs are more integration focused and credit a group of people for coming together, putting aside differences and forming a unified martial art.

However, I guess some instructors have read somewhere that he was the founder, see that as fact and like to credit him. While dan rank isn't everything the head instructor of that dojang is only a 4th Dan, so maybe he hasn't read up as much on history as others have. Or maybe he has and still believes in the Choi propaganda that he was the founder. Who knows...

Their head supervisor is Guinness World Record holder in breaking and KKW 7th Dan Ali Chehade. I thought he was famous in WTF circles?

 

[Tez3]

Their head supervisor is Guinness World Record holder in breaking and KKW 7th Dan Ali Chehade. I thought he was famous in WTF circles?

Only one breaking record in Guinness world Records and that's a lady. Sport and Strength Records

 

[Tez3]

This however is fascinating.
Fastest time to crush three watermelons with the thighs

 

[Axiom]

Only one breaking record in Guinness world Records and that's a lady. Sport and Strength Records

His was old, set in 2005, for breaking 64 cement blocks in 17 seconds.

It's shown at 1:44

 

[Tez3]

World Records for Board Breaking and Brick Breaking (Karate Power Breaking)

According to the quotes Guinness don't do a record for board breaking because of the difficulties mentioned.

 

[andyjeffries]

Their head supervisor is Guinness World Record holder in breaking and KKW 7th Dan Ali Chehade. I thought he was famous in WTF circles?

He may be famous in some circles, but I've never heard of him. Still, whether General Choi is "the founder" of Taekwondo is debatable (and often is debated) - so although it's highly unusual for a WTF/WT/Kukkiwon/Kwan instructor to consider him so, I guess there may be a rare few out there.

 

[Axiom]

He may be famous in some circles, but I've never heard of him. Still, whether General Choi is "the founder" of Taekwondo is debatable (and often is debated) - so although it's highly unusual for a WTF/WT/Kukkiwon/Kwan instructor to consider him so, I guess there may be a rare few out there.

I have always taken it to mean that Choi was the founder of the Chang Hon school that the particular students learn. But this is of course problematic since Taekwondo is an umbrella term for several styles, and to disregard the rest is unwarranted.

 

[Axiom]

One could argue that since a large portion of the KKW instructors in 1973 were former Chang Hon disciples forced to abandon their style, it cemented Chois influence even in his rival nemesis.

 

[andyjeffries]

One could argue that since a large portion of the KKW instructors in 1973 were former Chang Hon disciples forced to abandon their style, it cemented Chois influence even in his rival nemesis.

Really, what makes you believe that a large portion of KKW instructors in 1973 were former Chang Hon stylists?

 

[Axiom]

Really, what makes you believe that a large portion of KKW instructors in 1973 were former Chang Hon stylists?

They would have to be by default, since the Chang Hon style was banned in South Korea. Some" cheated" in training yet still gave out KKW certifikates because of their affection for the Chang Hon forms, while others never looked back, to this day.

 

[Axiom]

And yes, influental future KKW instructors included.

 

[Gnarlie]

One could argue that since a large portion of the KKW instructors in 1973 were former Chang Hon disciples forced to abandon their style, it cemented Chois influence even in his rival nemesis.

Source?

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[Gnarlie]

They would have to be by default, since the Chang Hon style was banned in South Korea. Some" cheated" in training yet still gave out KKW certifikates because of their affection for the Chang Hon forms, while others never looked back, to this day.

Salsa?

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[Gnarlie]

And yes, influental future KKW instructors included.

Though watching you lecture Andy is entertaining due to the sheer absurdity of it, it would be great if you actually sourced your information. It doesn't corroborate with my findings well at all.

I'll reiterate Andy's question: what makes you think those instructors (and which specific instructors and when) were practicing / teaching those forms?



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[andyjeffries]

They would have to be by default, since the Chang Hon style was banned in South Korea. Some" cheated" in training yet still gave out KKW certifikates because of their affection for the Chang Hon forms, while others never looked back, to this day.

I don't follow the logic. By "Kukkiwon instructors" I don't know which you mean out of:

1. official instructors, with a paid salary or per-day-rate from the Kukkiwon
2. instructors that are Kukkiwon-educated and licensed (I don't know when the Korean instructor course began)
3. instructors that teach Kukkiwon-style Taekwondo

In case 1, what would "Chang Hon being banned from South Korea" have to do with them being former Chang Hon stylists? Most likely the paid instructors at Kukkiwon would be regular Kukkiwon stylists, from one of the major kwans, likely one of the "big three" (Chungdokwan, Jidokwan and Changmookwan).

In case 2, assuming the instructor course was in existence then, what makes you think the majority of attendees of that course were Chang Hon stylists (which is only early Ohdokwan) over the other 8 kwans (ignoring the administrative kwan)?

The most likely, case 3, again though is the same as case 2. Ohdokwan wasn't the largest kwan, so let's go with some estimate numbers - 60% of practitioners were from the big three kwans, and the remaining 40% were split amongst the other 6 (let's assume fairly equally). This means that early Ohdokwan (Chang Hon) had about 7% of Taekwondo practitioners. If they abandoned their Chang Hon roots, that's still not a "large portion".

Finally, I'd like to talk about "Chang Hon was banned in South Korea". Is there any proof of this? General Choi Hong-hi was exiled from South Korea, and as far as I know there was no official ITF presence in South Korea until 2004, but the Chang Hon style was banned? Who banned it? The Korean government banned a style of movement?

Ohdokwan definitely still has a presence in South Korea and has maintained that throughout, but they practice Kukkiwon style (the most famous current Ohdokwan practitioner is probably, IMHO, GM Hwang, In-sik - one of the Kukkiwon's senior instructors and chairman of the poomsae committee for KTA, KKW and WT).

So I'd like to reiterate Gnarlie's point - "Source?". Currently, I think your point is highly unlikely and currently illogical and unsubstantiated.

 

[Tez3]

I doubt the OP is taking any of this in but I am finding this educational, so thank you for that. I've done a little TKD and know people who train in it so it's nice to have some more background. No knowledge is ever wasted I think.

 

[andyjeffries]

Thanks Tez. I have a personality trait towards accuracy (inaccuracies really rub me up the wrong way - kinda like OCD I guess), and it shows through in wanting to know everything I can about the history of Taekwondo and exactly how the movements/poomsae should be performed. I guess it's useful at times like this. I don't claim to be perfect, just that I'm always aiming to improve towards that goal ;-)