Is it me or...

[Xue Sheng]

Yes but you don't get punched in the face playing the drums or piano (hopefully )They are apples and oranges.

We do not agree.

Using the same logic you cannot compare learning the drums to learning the guitar because you don't h it stuff playing the guitar and you cannot compare playing guitar to learning the flute because there is no breath control required in playing the guitar. you also cannot compare Savate to Judo because there are no kicks in Judo and you cannot compare Judo to boxing because of the lack of emphasis on striking in Judo..... we do not agree and likely will not and that's ok.

 

[Mephisto]

I actually made a post in another thread which sort of addresses this point: Is it really the person not the style?

I agree with your other post. Train in something you like. If you just admit that you're training a system because you find it enjoyable, no one can take that from you. It's when people argue against another style without evidence to back up claims that I'll interject. It's like in this thread, if someone trains chun because they like, by all means enjoy. But if they train chun because its "the best striking system there is" then I ask for evidence.

For example, I train boxing because I like it and I think it's an effective striking system. No one can tell me I don't like boxing, and my evidence for it's effectiveness can be seen in countless videos. I'm still not gonna say it's the best, but its a good one and there's plenty of proof. Chun may vary we'll be good also, I'd just say it lacks the proof boxing does. But chun also isn't as popular so naturally there will be less proof.

We do not agree.

Using the same logic you cannot compare learning the drums to learning the guitar because you don't h it stuff playing the guitar and you cannot compare playing guitar to learning the flute because there is no breath control required in playing the guitar. you also cannot compare Savate to Judo because there are no kicks in Judo and you cannot compare Judo to boxing because of the lack of emphasis on striking in Judo..... we do not agree and likely will not and that's ok.

No we don't agree, martial arts Re comparable because they are all martial Arts and lines can be drawn and comparisons can be made between systems. Even with music some comparisons can be made, but eventually you have to draw a line where the two differ. I'm sure we could compare martial arts to cars, academic subjects, dog breeding, whatever, but at the end of the day martial arts is about hitting and breaking people or you're just dancing and acting, which is fine if that's what you like to do.

 

[ShortBridge]

...
For example, I train boxing because I like it and I think it's an effective striking system. No one can tell me I don't like boxing, and my evidence for it's effectiveness can be seen in countless videos. I'm still not gonna say it's the best, but its a good one and there's plenty of proof. Chun may vary we'll be good also, I'd just say it lacks the proof boxing does. But chun also isn't as popular so naturally there will be less proof.
...

I don't want to disagree with someone who is agreeing with me. Horrible debate tactic on my part, but let's banter a little bit about this.

First of all, I love boxing. I did it passionately as a teenager and in my early 20s and transitioned to Muay Thai for another several years. I really do get it and would never speak out against it.

But, I became concerned about boxing as a complete set of self defense skills and tactics for me. For lots of reasons will sound like criticisms, but are not. I loved it, I love it now. Monster respect for it, but I am absolutely sure that I am better off now from a self defense perspective than I was then...personally.

When you say you have "plenty of proof", are you referring to boxing matches? No one would claim that boxing isn't effective for boxing. But, the jump to "reality" is what I think we ALL get wrong. Nearly everyone I boxed with back then broke their hand in a bar fight at one point or another. At what point does that start to become a bad strategy?

Again, nothing but respect. I appreciate what you do and what you wrote in support. But I don't just do what I do because I like it. I also don't claim that chi sao is proof of anything.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe I missed it, but did someone say WC doesn't move backwards?

never seen a chunner fight moving backwards. And ironically good back foot fighting counters good aggressive fighting.

So mastering that would be like having a superpower.

 

[drop bear]

I don't want to disagree with someone who is agreeing with me. Horrible debate tactic on my part, but let's banter a little bit about this.

First of all, I love boxing. I did it passionately as a teenager and in my early 20s and transitioned to Muay Thai for another several years. I really do get it and would never speak out against it.

But, I became concerned about boxing as a complete set of self defense skills and tactics for me. For lots of reasons will sound like criticisms, but are not. I loved it, I love it now. Monster respect for it, but I am absolutely sure that I am better off now from a self defense perspective than I was then...personally.

When you say you have "plenty of proof", are you referring to boxing matches? No one would claim that boxing isn't effective for boxing. But, the jump to "reality" is what I think we ALL get wrong. Nearly everyone I boxed with back then broke their hand in a bar fight at one point or another. At what point does that start to become a bad strategy?

Again, nothing but respect. I appreciate what you do and what you wrote in support. But I don't just do what I do because I like it. I also don't claim that chi sao is proof of anything.

It shouldn't be a boxing vs chun thing. More there are basic elements of striking that boxers do well and chun can take advantage of. Because you are effectively fighting in that same range.

So putting on flurries counter punching, even hand trapping chun and boxing share. Mma are using vertical fists more as well. But chun for some insane reason don't want to create good angles with footwork even though they are conceptually founded on creating good angles.

 

[drop bear]

In our lineage, we do move back, but only as a yield to their force. In other words, moving back increases the distance between you and your opponent, yielding does not.
I think covering the distance is the hardest part of the fight, both physically and mentally. Why go back to the outside once you've accomplished the hardest part?

because unless you are striking accurately and with power you are setting up to be knocked out or taken down.

So you have worked in and are putting shots on and they cover. You cant keep pressing that attack. Because you are not achieving anything. With your punches negated what are you doing?

Standing still in their range.

 

[yak sao]

because unless you are striking accurately and with power you are setting up to be knocked out or taken down.

So you have worked in and are putting shots on and they cover. You cant keep pressing that attack. Because you are not achieving anything. With your punches negated what are you doing?

Standing still in their range.

I would agree if all WC had in their arsenal were punches. But there are also knees, elbows, kicks, fak sau, grabbing, sweeping, stomping...........

 

[yak sao]

..... But chun for some insane reason don't want to create good angles with footwork even though they are conceptually founded on creating good angles.

You aren't speaking for all WC because my sifu was constantly teaching how to use our footwork to change the angle of our attack.
My si-gung uses the expression: " WT's footwork is the key that unlocks WT's hands"

 

[drop bear]

I would agree if all WC had in their arsenal were punches. But there are also knees, elbows, kicks, fak sau, grabbing, sweeping, stomping...........

makes no fundamental difference. The other guy has grabbing sweeping etc. As well.

 

[Kwan Sau]

You aren't speaking for all WC because my sifu was constantly teaching how to use our footwork to change the angle of our attack.
My si-gung uses the expression: " WT's footwork is the key that unlocks WT's hands"

It's all about the feet!!!!

 

[Mephisto]

I don't want to disagree with someone who is agreeing with me. Horrible debate tactic on my part, but let's banter a little bit about this.

First of all, I love boxing. I did it passionately as a teenager and in my early 20s and transitioned to Muay Thai for another several years. I really do get it and would never speak out against it.

But, I became concerned about boxing as a complete set of self defense skills and tactics for me. For lots of reasons will sound like criticisms, but are not. I loved it, I love it now. Monster respect for it, but I am absolutely sure that I am better off now from a self defense perspective than I was then...personally.

When you say you have "plenty of proof", are you referring to boxing matches? No one would claim that boxing isn't effective for boxing. But, the jump to "reality" is what I think we ALL get wrong. Nearly everyone I boxed with back then broke their hand in a bar fight at one point or another. At what point does that start to become a bad strategy?

Again, nothing but respect. I appreciate what you do and what you wrote in support. But I don't just do what I do because I like it. I also don't claim that chi sao is proof of anything.

I agree, boxing is not a complete self defense system. It's a good base for someone who is into martial arts as a lifelong pursuit. I also currently train and teach FMA, also have trained Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, JJJ, and BJJ. In martial arts from a fighting ability and self defense standpoint I think it's important to be well rounded, I also think it's good to have some specialties that you can perform exceptionally well, and if you're gonna train your whole life (or adult life in my case) you should be able to do somethings really well eventually. My thoughts are if I'm gonna claim to know how to punch, I'll at least be able to hold my own with a boxer. If I were to claim to be a good kicker, I'd want to be able to hold my own with a kicking specialist like an athletic TKDer or Muay Thai guy. Same for grappling and judo or BJJ. However, some guys get in one system for many years or do a buffet of systems and get old and seem to never have learned to do anything really well except for forms, and that's fine if you're not claiming to be a self defense expert or a fighter.

As for proof of boxing being effective, there are plenty of videos of guys who look remarkably like boxers applying it in street fights. Some of them may just be guys copying what they see in sport and tv, and some clearly have some training. As for breaking hands? It can happen, and if I break my hand while putting down a couple of guys doing it, it's a fair trade off. I'd rather not break my hand but I'd also rather have the skill to handle an aggressive guy trying to take my head off too. Plenty of guys who don't box break their hands too. Karate and many other arts used a closed fist as well it's a valid approach.

Is boxing all you need for self defense? No, I don't think many boxers would claim that, but it's a good approach because we've seen it work. IF you can punch really well you can overcome a lot but eventually you may need some grappling experience. A foundation in a solid art that trains regularly with resistance coupled with some combatives, RBSD, or even traditional training makes a good approach to self defense. I don't look at it as a sport vs street vs traditional or whatever martial art argument. I think all make the best combination and if you're a life long martial artist you've got the time to try them all.

 

[drop bear]

You aren't speaking for all WC because my sifu was constantly teaching how to use our footwork to change the angle of our attack.
My si-gung uses the expression: " WT's footwork is the key that unlocks WT's hands"

It is what you are supposed to do. But if you are fighting for the center it is precisely what you are not doing.

 

[yak sao]

makes no fundamental difference. The other guy has grabbing sweeping etc. As well.

You said we weren't accomplishing anything because they cover up. And I disagree because we aren't just pounding their arms with our fists.

 

[Kwan Sau]

But chun for some insane reason don't want to create good angles with footwork even though they are conceptually founded on creating good angles.

Drop Bear, a question if I may. Are you a WC / WT / VT practitioner? If so, are you saying you haven't yet seen or learned angle footwork(?) Just curious. Thx.

 

[yak sao]

It is what you are supposed to do. But if you are fighting for the center it is precisely what you are not doing.

Common misconception. WT/WC is not about standing in front of your opponent and fighting nose to nose.
We strike from our center and strike into the center of our opponent's mass.. this can be done whether in front, to the side, from behind from over top....

 

[Mephisto]

Here you go! And look multiple opponents too?!

 

[Xue Sheng]

No we don't agree, martial arts Re comparable because they are all martial Arts and lines can be drawn and comparisons can be made between systems. Even with music some comparisons can be made, but eventually you have to draw a line where the two differ. I'm sure we could compare martial arts to cars, academic subjects, dog breeding, whatever, but at the end of the day martial arts is about hitting and breaking people or you're just dancing and acting, which is fine if that's what you like to do.

So then hitting and breaking people are the criteria (you added one by the way), ok we can compare to snowball fights, rugby and football..... dancing and acting have little to do with it or the comparison being made to "Learning" a musical instrument or any skill for that matter....

 

[drop bear]

Drop Bear, a question if I may. Are you a WC / WT / VT practitioner? If so, are you saying you haven't yet seen or learned angle footwork(?) Just curious. Thx.

I have done a month or so and the footwork and concepts are there. In fact very similar to boxing. And then sparring puts you guys on train tracks.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I have done a month or so and the footwork and concepts are there.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

And then sparring puts you guys on train tracks.

So your blanket-assessment includes you also correct(?) Or just the rest of us, and not you?.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, thanks for clarifying.
So your blanket-assessment includes you also correct(?) Or just the rest of us, and not you?.

No it doesn't include me. To a certain degree anyway. Angling off is kind of an art form.