Is it me or...

[yak sao]

What you're describing is essentially what sparring is in boxing. The only difference is the "dancing around" jabs and feints are used to make the rushing in and unloading more unpredictable. When skill is involved you have to use a little more strategy. Morning in with guns blazing will get you knocked out. Not to mentioned a guy will just cover up and clinch.

No disagreement here. What I'm saying is the WC fighter shouldn't be dancing around as well or moving in and out. And yes, moving in, mindlessly attacking is nonsense....chi sau training teaches how to navigate through defenses and also how to deal with clenches.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The big issue you can find in ALL martial arts when it comes to sparring is, IMO, 2 things. One you spar only with people who train the same exact style you train therefore you are only expecting attacks and defenses in the way your art uses them. Once you come up against a different style of fighter and they approach you in an unorthodox manner (based on your training) you can get really messed up. The other issue is that many train and train well but for some reason, once they go up against another fighter absolutely everything they trained goes out the window and they turn into a western boxer and subsequently get their butt kicked because they never trained western boxing and they never used what they trained to fight with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a WC guy doesn't mind to get into clinch, the fighting style will be different.

 

[Danny T]

When I have my students spar wc we have different aspects. One is sparring for 3-5 minutes, another is sparring for only 10 seconds, and another is sparring until the first major contact. Often we spar vs multiple opponents, 2, 3, 4, & 5.
We also spar in different scenarios like in a doorway or we'll set up a marker on the floor and I'll have a person stand in the 'doorway' telling him/her the bad guy is going to go through you and your family is behind you. You must stop the bad guy. Then I'll tell the other person that when you attack, attack as though the person standing in the doorway is the bad guy and has kidnapped your family and is going to kill them. Now spar with that intent.
Sparring does not have to be like a boxing or mma match.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Can you elaborate on sparring vs fighting mentality?

In short sparring give your opponent an equal opportunity to fight back showing good sportsmanship, fighting does not and is more serious in nature with killer instinct.

Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis Sifu Roger Hagood demonstrates a fighting mentality starting at 12:00 and 23:55 into this video

here is a good example of a sparring mentality

Is this video vanderlei Silva came to spar while Vitor Belfort came to fight

 

[KPM]

The big issue you can find in ALL martial arts when it comes to sparring is, IMO, 2 things. One you spar only with people who train the same exact style you train therefore you are only expecting attacks and defenses in the way your art uses them. Once you come up against a different style of fighter and they approach you in an unorthodox manner (based on your training) you can get really messed up. The other issue is that many train and train well but for some reason, once they go up against another fighter absolutely everything they trained goes out the window and they turn into a western boxer and subsequently get their butt kicked because they never trained western boxing and they never used what they trained to fight with.

Excellent points Xue, and ones that I have made in the past as well. In fact, I have seen your second point in action so often that I have come to wonder if the pseudo-western boxer/kickboxer mechanic that people resort to under pressure so often in sparring videos....is maybe a more natural and instinctive way to move. I've wondered often why the Wing Chun structure that people put so much sweat and so many hours into developing in the gym...why it seems to so readily disappear under pressure. People have answered this question with comments like..."Wing Chun doesn't have to look like Wing Chun in application" or "under pressure you just do what works." But I think this is a major cop out. If you put so much effort into developing a Wing Chun biomechanic as taught in the forms and drills...don't you expect it to be there for you when you have to perform under pressure in sparring or a real fight? Shouldn't it be second nature so that you don't even have to think about it? You could say the people that don't have that under pressure just didn't train properly or long enough or hard enough. But I've seen this happen to seasoned people with good training and lots of time in the system. So...I've begun to wonder if a boxing/kickboxing way of moving isn't more natural and instinctive.........

 

[Kwan Sau]

Sparring develops a give and take mentality. That is not what we should be developing as WC fighters.
...Don't dance around picking shots and moving in and out of range.

Well said Yak!!!

 

[drop bear]

Excellent points Xue, and ones that I have made in the past as well. In fact, I have seen your second point in action so often that I have come to wonder if the pseudo-western boxer/kickboxer mechanic that people resort to under pressure so often in sparring videos....is maybe a more natural and instinctive way to move. I've wondered often why the Wing Chun structure that people put so much sweat and so many hours into developing in the gym...why it seems to so readily disappear under pressure. People have answered this question with comments like..."Wing Chun doesn't have to look like Wing Chun in application" or "under pressure you just do what works." But I think this is a major cop out. If you put so much effort into developing a Wing Chun biomechanic as taught in the forms and drills...don't you expect it to be there for you when you have to perform under pressure in sparring or a real fight? Shouldn't it be second nature so that you don't even have to think about it? You could say the people that don't have that under pressure just didn't train properly or long enough or hard enough. But I've seen this happen to seasoned people with good training and lots of time in the system. So...I've begun to wonder if a boxing/kickboxing way of moving isn't more natural and instinctive.........

Lots of boxing and kick boxing you have to be good at to pull off. I would not have said that is a natural way to fight either.

 

[drop bear]

my coach is a pressure fighter. But there are reasons he can get away with what he does.

I am lost a bit with this sparring mentality vs fight mentality. You have to play to your strengths. Sometimes that means going backwards.

 

[Mephisto]

In short sparring give your opponent an equal opportunity to fight back showing good sportsmanship, fighting does not and is more serious in nature with killer instinct.

Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis Sifu Roger Hagood demonstrates a fighting mentality starting at 12:00 and 23:55 into this video

here is a good example of a sparring mentality

Is this video vanderlei Silva came to spar while Vitor Belfort came to fight

I'd disagree that in sparring you give the opponent an equal opportunity to fight back. You find an opening via jabs, slip, ect move in and unload, in reality it would probably end there with an untrained guy. The give and take you see in a professional match is due to the experience and conditioning of the athletes. I liked the Kung fu school challenge video, great find! I wasn't impressed by the Asian Sifu, but I was glad to see his student did better. If the sifu was more mobile he may have done better. Standing your ground only works when you're bigger or better than your opponent, if the playing field is more level you have to range in and out.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Sometimes that means going backwards.

Maybe I missed it, but did someone say WC doesn't move backwards?

 

[yak sao]

Maybe I missed it, but did someone say WC doesn't move backwards?

In our lineage, we do move back, but only as a yield to their force. In other words, moving back increases the distance between you and your opponent, yielding does not.
I think covering the distance is the hardest part of the fight, both physically and mentally. Why go back to the outside once you've accomplished the hardest part?

 

[ShortBridge]

... So...I've begun to wonder if a boxing/kickboxing way of moving isn't more natural and instinctive.........

I think that boxing and kickboxing are more natural and instinctive ways to move. I also think that the frame of reference for those styles is much broader.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think that boxing and kickboxing are more natural and instinctive ways to move. I also think that the frame of reference for those styles is much broader.

I am not convinced it is natural or instinctive, I am convinced that it is what we grow up seeing in the west and we revert to the familiar. Now if everyone on the planet with fighting reverted to a boxing way of fighting then I would think it instinctive but they don't, so I look at it as learned. And it can be learned simply by what you see year after year on TV and in movies or in boxing matches. How many know Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, and Evander Holyfield as compared to Joe Lewis, Benny the Jet, Billy Blanks (as a fighter), Leung Sheung, or William Cheung outside of the hallowed pages of MT?

 

[Vajramusti]

What you're describing is essentially what sparring is in boxing. The only difference is the "dancing around" jabs and feints are used to make the rushing in and unloading more unpredictable. When skill is involved you have to use a little more strategy. Morning in with guns blazing will get you knocked out. Not to mentioned a guy will just cover up and clinch.

---------------------------------------------------------------
With good skilled chi sao experience strategy and tactics is built into closing the gap and going in. Different from boxing sparring.

 

[ShortBridge]

Playing drums is much more intuitive than playing piano or trumpet. Most kids want to play drums because they look at it and it makes sense to them. I love good drummers, so I have no issue with that, but depending on what you want to accomplish musically, drums may not do it for you.

Which "gets you on stage" more quickly? Probably drums. Which is more "effective" after 6 or 8 months of work? Drums. Which might you develop some competency with self-taught via recordings and videos? Most likely drums.

But some people need to play piano or guitar or tenor saxophone to accomplish their goals. Some people need to compose, which is hard to do on drums. And a dirty secret is that if you've ever known a really good jazz drummer, you realize that their natural intuition was replaced a long time ago with years of really uncomfortable, really boring and repetitive practice and learning. What is most natural only gets you so far, no matter what you do.

I'm glad there are drummers. I'm glad there are composers. On music forums, drummers never show up and tell piano players that practicing scales and learning harmony is just for show and they can prove to them that drums will drown them out everytime. Or that someone playing drums for 1 year is better than someone playing classical guitar for one year, so why do they bother?

And no one ever says, "You've been practicing piano for 5 years, but Neil Peart from Rush would blow you away" because they understand that comparing professionals to people who are trying to learn something isn't logical.

That is a unique part of martial arts culture that I find regrettable.

 

[Mephisto]

Playing drums is much more intuitive than playing piano or trumpet. Most kids want to play drums because they look at it and it makes sense to them. I love good drummers, so I have no issue with that, but depending on what you want to accomplish musically, drums may not do it for you.

Which "gets you on stage" more quickly? Probably drums. Which is more "effective" after 6 or 8 months of work? Drums. Which might you develop some competency with self-taught via recordings and videos? Most likely drums.

But some people need to play piano or guitar or tenor saxophone to accomplish their goals. Some people need to compose, which is hard to do on drums. And a dirty secret is that if you've ever known a really good jazz drummer, you realize that their natural intuition was replaced a long time ago with years of really uncomfortable, really boring and repetitive practice and learning. What is most natural only gets you so far, no matter what you do.

I'm glad there are drummers. I'm glad there are composers. On music forums, drummers never show up and tell piano players that practicing scales and learning harmony is just for show and they can prove to them that drums will drown them out everytime. Or that someone playing drums for 1 year is better than someone playing classical guitar for one year, so why do they bother?

And no one ever says, "You've been practicing piano for 5 years, but Neil Peart from Rush would blow you away" because they understand that comparing professionals to people who are trying to learn something isn't logical.

That is a unique part of martial arts culture that I find regrettable.

Yes but music doesn't claim to protect or save your life like martial arts do. It's a fair comparison and I see where you're trying to go. But at the end of the day when you're talking about fighting ability and self defense application the example of music falls apart. Now if you're only talking recreation and exercise it doesn't matter, do whatever you want and enjoy it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes but music doesn't claim to protect or save your life like martial arts do. It's a fair comparison and I see where you're trying to go. But at the end of the day when you're talking about fighting ability and self defense application the example of music falls apart. Now if you're only talking recreation and exercise it doesn't matter, do whatever you want and enjoy it.

Don't agree, it all takes kung fu (hard work) and it is all a learned skill

 

[Mephisto]

Don't agree, it all takes kung fu (hard work) and it is all a learned skill

Yes but you don't get punched in the face playing the drums or piano (hopefully )They are apples and oranges.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes but music doesn't claim to protect or save your life like martial arts do. It's a fair comparison and I see where you're trying to go. But at the end of the day when you're talking about fighting ability and self defense application the example of music falls apart. Now if you're only talking recreation and exercise it doesn't matter, do whatever you want and enjoy it.

I actually made a post in another thread which sort of addresses this point: Is it really the person not the style?